motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Um, dude, it's pretty much basic market economics. When you put upward pressure on the lowest wage, it pushes everything higher. I mean, why is this a question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 10 hours ago, revkevsdi said: What is better for the economy, 200 $10.00/hr employees getting a $2.00 an hour raise or the CEO getting $800,000.00? The government gets less taxes people have a bit more to spend. Lowering taxes for all would have the same effect on the economy. Money is better in your hands than the governments. The question is what justifies the raise? What does the balance sheet look like? A company of 200 paying $10/hr is likely a shitty deal to start with, so if the CEO is making 5 million there is something wrong. Go find another career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: The government gets less taxes people have a bit more to spend. Lowering taxes for all would have the same effect on the economy. Money is better in your hands than the governments. The question is what justifies the raise? What does the balance sheet look like? A company of 200 paying $10/hr is likely a shitty deal to start with, so if the CEO is making 5 million there is something wrong. Go find another career. You don't really address the systemic problem at hand here. You're just making a subjective value judgement based on your personal biases. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: You don't really address the systemic problem at hand here. You're just making a subjective value judgement based on your personal biases. Why is that? Maybe cause I live in the real world that exists as we know it. What is the point of investing? Lets say you sell your home for xx or whatever to start a business? Say you have 1 million in capital, if the business does not generate a better return than what you can get in the markets, is there any point to the exercise? If you lose that million, do the co-owner employees who didn't risk squat give a crap, no they move on to find something else. Reality is you will never get all employees to put in the same and they should be rewarded as such. How long do you think companies would last if they were run by unions where seniority is all that matters, job performance is irrelevant. If people are doing something that does not require them to think beyond the mind of a chimp, they are not going to care about much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 36 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: Maybe cause I live in the real world that exists as we know it. What is the point of investing? Lets say you sell your home for xx or whatever to start a business? Say you have 1 million in capital, if the business does not generate a better return than what you can get in the markets, is there any point to the exercise? If you lose that million, do the co-owner employees who didn't risk squat give a crap, no they move on to find something else. Reality is you will never get all employees to put in the same and they should be rewarded as such. How long do you think companies would last if they were run by unions where seniority is all that matters, job performance is irrelevant. If people are doing something that does not require them to think beyond the mind of a chimp, they are not going to care about much. The only "employee owned" business' that work are ones where they basically get a little stock for time of service. There still has to be a management team put in place to run the operation. There is a grocery store chain in my area ran this way and it does very well. Hy-Vee. https://www.hy-vee.com/company/about-hy-vee/history/1960s-HyVeeHistory.aspx Moto's version is just another one of his Utopian ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 hours ago, ArcticCrusher said: Maybe cause I live in the real world that exists as we know it. What is the point of investing? Lets say you sell your home for xx or whatever to start a business? Say you have 1 million in capital, if the business does not generate a better return than what you can get in the markets, is there any point to the exercise? If you lose that million, do the co-owner employees who didn't risk squat give a crap, no they move on to find something else. Reality is you will never get all employees to put in the same and they should be rewarded as such. How long do you think companies would last if they were run by unions where seniority is all that matters, job performance is irrelevant. If people are doing something that does not require them to think beyond the mind of a chimp, they are not going to care about much. No, the reason is that you don't want to admit that the system isn't capable of correcting itself, so you are trying to shift the blame for that to the workers. People who have no voice in the system aren't responsible for its flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 13 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No, the reason is that you don't want to admit that the system isn't capable of correcting itself, so you are trying to shift the blame for that to the workers. People who have no voice in the system aren't responsible for its flaws. What % of workers do you think are underpaid for their labor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Highmark said: What % of workers do you think are underpaid for their labor? 99% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: 99% So average compensation of hourly workers in this country is over $34/hour, you claim MW should be $20/hr yet 99% are underpaid. Fuck dude just stop. You make this too easy. You just can't handle the fact other than in your own business that most people might just be fairly compensated AND their still be profits left over. Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 9 minutes ago, Highmark said: So average compensation of hourly workers in this country is over $34/hour, you claim MW should be $20/hr yet 99% are underpaid. Fuck dude just stop. You make this too easy. You just can't handle the fact other than in your own business that most people might just be fairly compensated AND their still be profits left over. This graph says you're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, motonoggin said: This graph says you're wrong. Nope. Yours is just wages. Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Highmark said: Nope. Yours is just wages. Hey, Joe, I paid $12k to this gangster so he won't kill you instead of giving it to you. You should be grateful. And that is going to count as part of your wage. Neat huh? Edited January 27, 2017 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Hey, Joe, I paid $12k to this gangster so he won't kill you instead of giving it to you. You should be grateful. And that is going to count as part of your wage. Neat huh? Nice try. Many things contribute to total compensation. PTO, profit sharing or retirement benefits, health insurance, SS taxes just to name a few. I also love the fact that you ignore how workers benefit from companies doing well that they do not work for thru their retirement accounts. You own any stock moto? Be honest. Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1jkw Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 58 minutes ago, Highmark said: So average compensation of hourly workers in this country is over $34/hour, you claim MW should be $20/hr yet 99% are underpaid. Fuck dude just stop. You make this too easy. You just can't handle the fact other than in your own business that most people might just be fairly compensated AND their still be profits left over. If the average wage includes union wages it is not really a fair comparison as no union that I know of doesn't already pay above the MW. The problem with a national MW is that some places 15.00 per hr. you could live quite well others you couldn't possibly survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 "Fun with graphs (and polls for that matter)". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, 1jkw said: If the average wage includes union wages it is not really a fair comparison as no union that I know of doesn't already pay above the MW. The problem with a national MW is that some places 15.00 per hr. you could live quite well others you couldn't possibly survive. Only about 7% of the private workforce is union. Considering the lower wage entry level jobs is in the average I'd say it balances out. The numbers I've provided does not include govt workers. Non-Public workers only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1jkw Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Only about 7% of the private workforce is union. Considering the lower wage entry level jobs is in the average I'd say it balances out. The numbers I've provided does not include govt workers. Non-Public workers only. But there is a huge difference between the union wage, my friend works for UPS makes 2 to 3 times what non union delivery drivers make, union tradesmen make anywhere from 2 to 4 times as much as non union, there is basically no union in my area only time construction workers make near the union wage is when they are on government prevailing wage projects, 7% is a small % granted but the wage difference is large and inflates the numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 34 minutes ago, Highmark said: Nice try. Many things contribute to total compensation. PTO, profit sharing or retirement benefits, health insurance, SS taxes just to name a few. I also love the fact that you ignore how workers benefit from companies doing well that they do not work for thru their retirement accounts. You own any stock moto? Be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, 1jkw said: But there is a huge difference between the union wage, my friend works for UPS makes 2 to 3 times what non union delivery drivers make, union tradesmen make anywhere from 2 to 4 times as much as non union, there is basically no union in my area only time construction workers make near the union wage is when they are on government prevailing wage projects, 7% is a small % granted but the wage difference is large and inflates the numbers. 7% vs. 93%. Sorry union wages don't sway the average that much. Also a good part of that 7% is not under the older inflated union contracts but are still union. Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Alejandro needs a English lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Alejandro needs a English lesson. Typical capitalist, isn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 Just now, motonoggin said: Typical capitalist, isn't he? Why because he is correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Why because he is correct? So we already have communism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1jkw Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: 7% vs. 93%. Sorry union wages don't sway the average that much. 7% at a rate of 3 times the pay is 21%. Union workers don't work for MW so shouldn't be added to the numbers that do, only reason they are added is to make the avg. wages look higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 58 minutes ago, 1jkw said: 7% at a rate of 3 times the pay is 21%. Union workers don't work for MW so shouldn't be added to the numbers that do, only reason they are added is to make the avg. wages look higher. Hardly anybody works for MW. We are looking ave wages and compensation in the US. Union workers are a part of that and should be included just like the MW workers affect the average. I'm willing to bet good money the ave union compensation is not 3x's non union. Isn't even close in my area. In fact most union workers that are left are no better and often times less. Companies pay good to avoid the whole headache. Your 7 x 3 assumption is that all union is 3x and its simply not the case. Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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