f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Wiki but still defines it correctly. Techically every foot of elevation changes atmospheric pressure very small amount. In a naturally aspirated engine, air for combustion (Diesel cycle in a diesel engine or specific types of Otto cycle in petrol engines, namely petrol direct injection) or an air/fuel mixture (traditional Otto cycle petrol engines), is drawn into the engine's cylinders by atmospheric pressure acting against a partial vacuum that occurs as the piston travels downwards toward bottom dead centre during the intake stroke. Owing to innate restriction in the engine's inlet tract, which includes the intake manifold, a small pressure drop occurs as air is drawn in, resulting in a volumetric efficiency of less than 100 percent—and a less than complete air charge in the cylinder. The density of the air charge, and therefore the engine's maximum theoretical power output, in addition to being influenced by induction system restriction, is also affected by engine speed and atmospheric pressure, the latter of which decreases as the operating altitude increases. This is in contrast to a forced-induction engine, in which a mechanically driven supercharger or an exhaust-driven turbocharger is employed to facilitate increasing the mass of intake air beyond what could be produced by atmospheric pressure alone. Nobody said a normalized engine wasn’t a forced induction design. Of course it’s utilizing forced induction. Just not to the point of exceeding sea level power output. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 I feel like Neal and the lug flick discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 2 minutes ago, f7ben said: Nobody said a normalized engine wasn’t a forced induction design. Of course it’s utilizing forced induction. Just not to the point of exceeding sea level power output. So if a supercharger doesn't raise manifold pressure above sea level atmospheric pressure then its super normalizing not supercharging? Again I get what you are saying and people are splitting hairs here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 2 minutes ago, Highmark said: So if a supercharger doesn't raise manifold pressure above sea level atmospheric pressure then its super normalizing not supercharging? Again I get what you are saying and people are splitting hairs here. I mean it’s simple Are normalizing and charging two distinct things? I think I’ve shown that to be the case and most who haven’t been into airplanes probably wouldn’t have known. If you accept that they are two distinct system designs utilizing largely the same components then it would be correct to describe skidoos original system as normalized and not charged. Also about the only way a supercharger can fail to raise manifold pressure beyond 14.7 psi absolute is if it’s missing the belt lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, f7ben said: I mean it’s simple Are normalizing and charging two distinct things? I think I’ve shown that to be the case and most who haven’t been into airplanes probably wouldn’t have known. If you accept that they are two distinct system designs utilizing largely the same components then it would be correct to describe skidoos original system as normalized and not charged. Also about the only way a supercharger can fail to raise manifold pressure beyond 14.7 psi absolute is if it’s missing the belt lol You are "charging" the air at 10K feet to get it back to sea level pressure are you not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, Highmark said: You are "charging" the air at 10K feet to get it back to sea level pressure are you not? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 Just now, Highmark said: You are "charging" the air at 10K feet to get it back to sea level pressure are you not? Yes absolutely , but if you don’t “charge” it beyond sea level manifold pressure all you’ve done to the engine is normalize it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 (edited) 3 minutes ago, f7ben said: Yes absolutely , but if you don’t “charge” it beyond sea level manifold pressure all you’ve done to the engine is normalize it. Well if I'm using a Turbo to charge the air then my definition is its being turbocharged. I don't care if the definitions overlap one another. Edited March 12 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 4 minutes ago, Highmark said: Well if I'm using a Turbo to charge the air then my definition is its being turbocharged. I don't care if the definitions overlap one another. I just think it’s an easy thing to delineate. Using a turbo to maintain sea level power is normalizing. Using a turbo to exceed sea level power is charging. Almost anyone with an aircraft background would agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plissken Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 14 minutes ago, f7ben said: Yes absolutely , but if you don’t “charge” it beyond sea level manifold pressure all you’ve done to the engine is normalize it. So, are you saying that @NaturallyAspirated is therefore, abnormal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 21 minutes ago, f7ben said: Also about the only way a supercharger can fail to raise manifold pressure beyond 14.7 psi absolute is if it’s missing the belt lol You can't run a Vortex style supercharger thru a wastegate to control manifold pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 9 minutes ago, f7ben said: I just think it’s an easy thing to delineate. Using a turbo to maintain sea level power is normalizing. Using a turbo to exceed sea level power is charging. Almost anyone with an aircraft background would agree with that. Again I think we are all splitting hairs. What its doing vs what's it called in Airplanes or other vehicles. I know I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: You can't run a Vortex style supercharger thru a wastegate to control manifold pressure? It wouldn’t be a wastegate on the charge side. I’m sure some type of electronically controlled recirculating valve exists in some sc setups but it’s not common or commercially used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Again I think we are all splitting hairs. What its doing vs what's it called in Airplanes or other vehicles. I know I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I didn’t really start the argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 (edited) 7 minutes ago, f7ben said: It wouldn’t be a wastegate on the charge side. I’m sure some type of electronically controlled recirculating valve exists in some sc setups but it’s not common or commercially used Agree not common what so ever they are calling it a wastegate to control intake pressure on a supercharged engine. Doing it in reverse but could be done. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/sucp-1211-supercharger-wastegate/ "With the wastegate, we can spin the blower faster to produce greater boost, and bleed off the extra pressure that's not necessary," says Borschke. "This allows the boost to come on much sooner, gaining midrange power--especially torque--that you can really feel on the street. But more importantly, it helps maintain the right boost for to prevent detonation in a stock engine. Edited March 12 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 4 minutes ago, f7ben said: I didn’t really start the argument I simply asked you where you found this specific definition and to provide a link here. Yet you haven't backed it up yet. Why is that sooooo hard? You said it's 100 years old . Is it because you made it up??? Turbocharged has a specific definition and that means it makes a pressure above 1 atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 7 minutes ago, HSR said: I simply asked you where you found this specific definition and to provide a link here. Yet you haven't backed it up yet. Why is that sooooo hard? You said it's 100 years old . Is it because you made it up??? Turbocharged has a specific definition and that means it makes a pressure above 1 atmosphere. You’re too fucking stupid to understand what one atmosphere means. If you examine the definition of normalizing it’s easy to extrapolate what charging would mean and it’s exactly as I stated it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 9 minutes ago, Highmark said: Agree not common what so ever they are calling it a wastegate to control intake pressure on a supercharged engine. Doing it in reverse but could be done. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/sucp-1211-supercharger-wastegate/ "With the wastegate, we can spin the blower faster to produce greater boost, and bleed off the extra pressure that's not necessary," says Borschke. "This allows the boost to come on much sooner, gaining midrange power--especially torque--that you can really feel on the street. But more importantly, it helps maintain the right boost for to prevent detonation in a stock engine. Strange that they call it a wastegate. I guess if they are venting it to atmosphere that definition could fit. Typically it would be dumped back to the intake side of the compressor wheel and would be a recirc system like what’s used in many cars instead of a bov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 34 minutes ago, f7ben said: You’re too fucking stupid to understand what one atmosphere means. I think in 32 years of operating a coal/wood fired steam generation power plant I may have learned a thing or 2 about pressure and vacuum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Steve753 Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 (edited) Ok, so after all that F7Ben was wrong again. What's next? Edited March 12 by Steve753 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 14 minutes ago, Steve753 said: Ok, so after all that F7Ben was wrong again. What's next? I think he needs ME to tell him he was right so he can sleep at night and just move on with life in general. My opinions and thoughts seem to be VERY important to him and he needs me to agree with him to feel complete. It's flattering actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Steve753 Posted March 12 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, HSR said: I think he needs ME to tell him he was right so he can sleep at night and just move on with life in general. My opinions and thoughts seem to be VERY important to him and he needs me to agree with him to feel complete. It's flattering actually Read that turbo clutching thread awhile back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 5 minutes ago, Steve753 said: Read that turbo clutching thread awhile back! Crazy eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 23 minutes ago, HSR said: Crazy eh? Crazy how wrong you were and that you still won’t admit it …. Insane actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 8 minutes ago, f7ben said: Crazy how wrong you were and that you still won’t admit it …. Insane actually Why are you so concerned that members think you're smarter than me? It's odd. So I did some more research and I found this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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