Midwest off trail sled

[Cat45]

Thinking about building a logging road/ tree riding sled for northern wi, mn, mi. I already have a trail sled so no worries on trail performance. I have an 800HO suzuki engine and electronics sitting here so it's going to be a cat platform. I'm doing this for fun, yes i could just go buy a sled but i don't want to.  I'm kinda old, kinda out of shape and have a lack of talent when it comes to tree riding so I'd like it to be maneuverable but forgiving. Thinking a 153x2 track, full cooler and 40ish ski stance.  Thinking a 14-17 m or xf 141 stretched to 153. Any suggestions?

[SayatodaU.P.eh?]

14x” class track with a 2” or more paddle, is fine for 90% of Michigan off trail riding. You need to have someone who really knows where the honey holes are to need a 150” class sled. Been off trail/bush/tree riding in the UP since before it was cool. I have a 155 now strictly because I’m old, fat and lazy. 

[Cat45]

11 hours ago, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

14x” class track with a 2” or more paddle, is fine for 90% of Michigan off trail riding. You need to have someone who really knows where the honey holes are to need a 150” class sled. Been off trail/bush/tree riding in the UP since before it was cool. I have a 155 now strictly because I’m old, fat and lazy. 

I should look at a 153 then, old and fat sounds similar lol. Are the older m8 sleds decent or should i stick with a proclimb/procross? I've trail ridden for 40 yrs and can stay in front of most still but off trail is kicking my ass! I hate getting stuck....

[mnstang]

I had a 141 high country with the 2.25 powerclaw.  The track was perfect for northern MN deep snow.  I would only go to a longer track if you're doing real climbing because that's when you'd want the length to keep the sled flatter.  The 141 will help you alot for turning because it's a wheelie machine and that can really help you .  The down side to the off trail cats is the front end.  It's just not balanced well with the rest of sled, front end heavy.  Very divey and tippy in certain snow conditions when you need to be technical.  Under throttle everything is fine but they're impossible to ride in certain conditions going slow and technical.  Listen to the snowest podcast about the catalyst they describe the old cat sled exactly.  I liked my high country alot some days but other days it was frustrating and I couldn't get into some areas or ride other areas.  So I ordered a m catalyst.  But I'm a big believer in that 141 2.25 setup with that float skid.  The only time I ever had it trench bad was say if you're in some crazy deep cat tails of bottomless snow, like legit 10' deep stuff like when you just see the very tips of them or not at all.  Most 3'-4' conditions it's fine it wheelies whenever you want but also goes forward whenever you want and it makes the rowdiness fun doing sweet j hooks and all that stuff.

[SayatodaU.P.eh?]

1 hour ago, Cat45 said:

I should look at a 153 then, old and fat sounds similar lol. Are the older m8 sleds decent or should i stick with a proclimb/procross? I've trail ridden for 40 yrs and can stay in front of most still but off trail is kicking my ass! I hate getting stuck....

The older M was a good chassis but the PC is better, imo. Like mnstang said though, the PC chassis still leaves some to be desired. For me, it’s that it doesn’t get through the snow on its side very. The newer PC chassis (can’t remember the year they changed 16 maybe?) is better with the newer/skinnier body work and suspension but I still believe having all that spindle and a arm hanging out there hurts it. The Alphas didn’t fix that either, imo. 
 

If you have to have a Cat I would stay as new as your budget allows. Lower secondary steering post mount was an issue but there’s an update for that. I still think you’d be fine with a 141 x 2.25 but buy the 153 if you want that cushion. Just be ready to hate yourself if you have to ride a lot of trails to get where you want to play. They can overheat ridiculously easy. Even with scratchers. I’m not familiar enough with the 141” sleds to know what they had for cooling systems. 

[Cat45]

2 hours ago, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

The older M was a good chassis but the PC is better, imo. Like mnstang said though, the PC chassis still leaves some to be desired. For me, it’s that it doesn’t get through the snow on its side very. The newer PC chassis (can’t remember the year they changed 16 maybe?) is better with the newer/skinnier body work and suspension but I still believe having all that spindle and a arm hanging out there hurts it. The Alphas didn’t fix that either, imo. 
 

If you have to have a Cat I would stay as new as your budget allows. Lower secondary steering post mount was an issue but there’s an update for that. I still think you’d be fine with a 141 x 2.25 but buy the 153 if you want that cushion. Just be ready to hate yourself if you have to ride a lot of trails to get where you want to play. They can overheat ridiculously easy. Even with scratchers. I’m not familiar enough with the 141” sleds to know what they had for cooling systems. 

I'm thinking I'll go 153 because it'll be a bit more forgiving. Trails are no issue. I can ride right from my driveway a 1/4 mi to 500mi of logging rds and public land. Even northern mn we can park right on the end of a plowed rd and ride. Only issue might be gas but last year we didn't have issues. I was on a 137x1.75 8000rr and had fun but got stuck too much. Mostly from lack of talent but not really the right sled for that kind of riding

[Ez ryder]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:15 PM, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

14x” class track with a 2” or more paddle, is fine for 90% of Michigan off trail riding. You need to have someone who really knows where the honey holes are to need a 150” class sled. Been off trail/bush/tree riding in the UP since before it was cool. I have a 155 now strictly because I’m old, fat and lazy. 

I find when I don't know where I am going is when I need the 155 the most . When you have to turn around in thick brush of heavy timber the longer the track the better . Any asshole can run a 136 on a wide open logging road but when it gets narrow and ends not many can pick it thrugh the trees with enough speed to stay on top

[Ez ryder]

On 3/19/2023 at 7:07 AM, Cat45 said:

I should look at a 153 then, old and fat sounds similar lol. Are the older m8 sleds decent or should i stick with a proclimb/procross? I've trail ridden for 40 yrs and can stay in front of most still but off trail is kicking my ass! I hate getting stuck....

Imho I really like the 11M  with a loose to non existent limmiter strap. 

The 14 and up are better at laying over and holding a line but they deff dive if you let off fast . And they are not the best at getting up on top fast. They really need to chew a trench before popping up. I could ride my old 14 . I could have gotten a 18 at race program cost but went with a doo at 3500 more for a base line sled than the SP cat I could have had .

I really hope cat gets thete head out of there ass cuz at heart I am a cat guy . But for now I will just hand out with the gays on my doo .

 

[Ez ryder]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:20 AM, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

The older M was a good chassis but the PC is better, imo. Like mnstang said though, the PC chassis still leaves some to be desired. For me, it’s that it doesn’t get through the snow on its side very. The newer PC chassis (can’t remember the year they changed 16 maybe?) is better with the newer/skinnier body work and suspension but I still believe having all that spindle and a arm hanging out there hurts it. The Alphas didn’t fix that either, imo. 
 

If you have to have a Cat I would stay as new as your budget allows. Lower secondary steering post mount was an issue but there’s an update for that. I still think you’d be fine with a 141 x 2.25 but buy the 153 if you want that cushion. Just be ready to hate yourself if you have to ride a lot of trails to get where you want to play. They can overheat ridiculously easy. Even with scratchers. I’m not familiar enough with the 141” sleds to know what they had for cooling systems. 

Pretty sure The HC had full coolers 

Acctaly a HC with the shorter tunnel and a 153 float skid and. 2.6 PC would be a nice combo 

[Cat45]

13 minutes ago, Ez ryder said:

Pretty sure The HC had full coolers 

Acctaly a HC with the shorter tunnel and a 153 float skid and. 2.6 PC would be a nice combo 

This is what I'm leaning towards. I need a track that i can put screw in studs into. Was thinking a 2in backcountry. At home here we have alot of plowed logging rds that get icy and makes climbing up a 6ft bank to get to another area tough without traction. What width front end do you recommend? I'm thinking 39-40. 

[Ez ryder]

14 hours ago, Cat45 said:

This is what I'm leaning towards. I need a track that i can put screw in studs into. Was thinking a 2in backcountry. At home here we have alot of plowed logging rds that get icy and makes climbing up a 6ft bank to get to another area tough without traction. What width front end do you recommend? I'm thinking 39-40. 

I always have my sleds as narrow as I can get them if they spend any time off trail . I don't even like to jump from side to side more in to lean and brap . Less work the better . Not to mention when the woods get tight every 1/2 inch counts . Snowbikes are the best for the woods hands down zero question unbeatable boondockers 

[Cat45]

15 minutes ago, Ez ryder said:

I always have my sleds as narrow as I can get them if they spend any time off trail . I don't even like to jump from side to side more in to lean and brap . Less work the better . Not to mention when the woods get tight every 1/2 inch counts . Snowbikes are the best for the woods hands down zero question unbeatable boondockers 

I guess i can see that to save energy. I keep thinking about stability at speed on the logging rds, but if I'm building a stumpjumping brush beater i can just slow down. 

[Ez ryder]

Just now, Cat45 said:

I guess i can see that to save energy. I keep thinking about stability at speed on the logging rds, but if I'm building a stumpjumping brush beater i can just slow down. 

I can do 80 on a mountian sled all day and not think twice about it . It's like a motorcycle the faster you ho the harder it is to tip over .yeah you have to drive them not ride them in the tight twisty trail . But if you are old you are use to breaking hard  leaning in and brapping out of the corners 

[Cat45]

28 minutes ago, Ez ryder said:

I can do 80 on a mountian sled all day and not think twice about it . It's like a motorcycle the faster you ho the harder it is to tip over .yeah you have to drive them not ride them in the tight twisty trail . But if you are old you are use to breaking hard  leaning in and brapping out of the corners 

This off trail stuff is new to me, been racing xc and trailriding for 40 yrs. Still like to pound the whooped out trails but the group i ride with is all on crossovers now and we're doing more exploring off trail. Tried it with a 1.75 x137 on my rr last year and it sucked. Figured I'd build something better this year and trail ride my other sled 

[Ez ryder]

6 hours ago, Cat45 said:

This off trail stuff is new to me, been racing xc and trailriding for 40 yrs. Still like to pound the whooped out trails but the group i ride with is all on crossovers now and we're doing more exploring off trail. Tried it with a 1.75 x137 on my rr last year and it sucked. Figured I'd build something better this year and trail ride my other sled 

That is best have a Dimond pounder and a dedicated off trail sled . 1 thing is for sure you can't give 2 fucks about plastic or busted lugs or dented bumpers if you want to go boondocking .it only sings for the first 5 min after you take your new sled with 20 mi on it thrugh the thick sumac lol 

You said somthing about screws in the lugs . I don't know never done it . But you have to get over the idea of following a path if you plan to go off trail best part is not needing a path make your own up the hill no need to follow the Dimond pounders trail 

 

[Cat45]

1 minute ago, Ez ryder said:

That is best have a Dimond pounder and a dedicated off trail sled . 1 thing is for sure you can't give 2 fucks about plastic or busted lugs or dented bumpers if you want to go boondocking .it only sings for the first 5 min after you take your new sled with 20 mi on it thrugh the thick sumac lol 

You said somthing about screws in the lugs . I don't know never done it . But you have to get over the idea of following a path if you plan to go off trail best part is not needing a path make your own up the hill no need to follow the Dimond pounders trail 

 

That's why I'm going to build 1 for the brush, probly get something from copart or piece 1 together over the summer for something to do. Only reason I'm looking at the screw in studs is we end up riding some icy plowed rds here at home to get other areas and the snowbanks get to be 6+ft high and the unstudded sleds had big problems getting traction to get up and over the banks off the icy roads. That 2in bcx should be a really tough track and hold up good to marginal spring conditions and running over stumps and logs in the woods. 

[Ez ryder]

3 minutes ago, Cat45 said:

That's why I'm going to build 1 for the brush, probly get something from copart or piece 1 together over the summer for something to do. Only reason I'm looking at the screw in studs is we end up riding some icy plowed rds here at home to get other areas and the snowbanks get to be 6+ft high and the unstudded sleds had big problems getting traction to get up and over the banks off the icy roads. That 2in bcx should be a really tough track and hold up good to marginal spring conditions and running over stumps and logs in the woods. 

Yeah cat powder claw is a great track for stump grinding . My summit track is just junk . Think sled has 1200 mi and is missing 5 or 6 lugs . Poo not much better . They are fine for outwest pow but midwest stump jumping not so much 

[mnstang]

I would go with a powerclaw and go full skinny front if you can, no reason not to

[SayatodaU.P.eh?]

3000 miles on my 2015 RMK. Original 2.4” 155 track. It’s lived it’s entire life out in the woods here in Michigan and a few trips out west. It’s missing the tip off 2-3 lugs, that’s it. The PC is a nice track but I don’t see it holding up any better than the Polaris tracks. The only Cat guy left in our group has similar mileage on his 16 M and he has just as much track damage as I do. 
 

The 155 is nice to explore areas that sleds typically shouldn’t be in, that’s for sure. The still get stuck if you try hard enough though. 
 

Now that I’ve had two sleds for both types of riding, I’d have to give up riding one of the two types before I went back to one sled. Soooo nice to not have to compromise. 

[Cat45]

6 minutes ago, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

3000 miles on my 2015 RMK. Original 2.4” 155 track. It’s lived it’s entire life out in the woods here in Michigan and a few trips out west. It’s missing the tip off 2-3 lugs, that’s it. The PC is a nice track but I don’t see it holding up any better than the Polaris tracks. The only Cat guy left in our group has similar mileage on his 16 M and he has just as much track damage as I do. 
 

The 155 is nice to explore areas that sleds typically shouldn’t be in, that’s for sure. The still get stuck if you try hard enough though. 
 

Now that I’ve had two sleds for both types of riding, I’d have to give up riding one of the two types before I went back to one sled. Soooo nice to not have to compromise. 

I never would've agreed with you untill last year. I've never been stuck so many times in my life as i was with that little 137. In my younger days i went everywhere on old 121s but the snow must be deeper now....

[SayatodaU.P.eh?]

1 minute ago, Cat45 said:

I never would've agreed with you untill last year. I've never been stuck so many times in my life as i was with that little 137. In my younger days i went everywhere on old 121s but the snow must be deeper now....

No, you just weren’t going far enough off the trail, that’s all. 
 

Lots of guys have tried to come off trail ride with us with their 137 x 1.75 sleds. They usually don’t have a very good time. Not trying to be a dick but we actually won’t even bring them anymore. You spend all day digging them out and you can’t even go where you really want to go. 

[mnstang]

5 hours ago, SayatodaU.P.eh? said:

3000 miles on my 2015 RMK. Original 2.4” 155 track. It’s lived it’s entire life out in the woods here in Michigan and a few trips out west. It’s missing the tip off 2-3 lugs, that’s it. The PC is a nice track but I don’t see it holding up any better than the Polaris tracks. The only Cat guy left in our group has similar mileage on his 16 M and he has just as much track damage as I do. 
 

The 155 is nice to explore areas that sleds typically shouldn’t be in, that’s for sure. The still get stuck if you try hard enough though. 
 

Now that I’ve had two sleds for both types of riding, I’d have to give up riding one of the two types before I went back to one sled. Soooo nice to not have to compromise. 

I agree.  If I could only have one sled id just have to stop trail riding or off trail riding.  

I thought for a couple seconds about ordering a riot and then I remembered every moment of riding it would always be compromised, it would not be epically good at anything.  It's like the guys with the crossovers, even if they can go places and not get stuck, that's not a win on its own.  its not going to work nearly as good as a deep snow sled.  Just like the deep snow sled CAN go down the trail, it's not going to work like a trail sled.  And a crossover is like that all the time and there's never a pay off because it's all compromise.

 

[Cat45]

7 minutes ago, mnstang said:

I agree.  If I could only have one sled id just have to stop trail riding or off trail riding.  

I thought for a couple seconds about ordering a riot and then I remembered every moment of riding it would always be compromised, it would not be epically good at anything.  It's like the guys with the crossovers, even if they can go places and not get stuck, that's not a win on its own.  its not going to work nearly as good as a deep snow sled.  Just like the deep snow sled CAN go down the trail, it's not going to work like a trail sled.  And a crossover is like that all the time and there's never a pay off because it's all compromise.

 

The assaults i ride with do pretty good off trail but aren't the fastest on trail. They're not really tree riding though, just powerlines, and goat paths up on the shore. We found some creek beds to play on and it was a stuckfest so that got me thinking about just going to a straight up mtn sled. I can see the point of a cross over up there because you can trail ride part of the day then explore through the forest on the way back but you don't really need a longtrack for the logging rds, but it would be more fun to just cut cross country to the next rd

[mnstang]

6 hours ago, Cat45 said:

I never would've agreed with you untill last year. I've never been stuck so many times in my life as i was with that little 137. In my younger days i went everywhere on old 121s but the snow must be deeper now....

I'm guessing this 137 you're talking about was a trail skid.  Don't get tricked into only looking solely at track length.  The skid type makes way more difference than the length.  My 141 float may sound like it'd do about same as a 137 but it's not even in the same league as any trail or crossover sled.  The 141 is way way better than cats 146 riot skid in snow.  Like I said the only reason I'd want longer is for real climbing where you want to stay flatter.  The times I've gotten stuck was from doing dumbass stuff and getting into bad situations and I would've got stuck with anything then.

[mnstang]

3 minutes ago, Cat45 said:

The assaults i ride with do pretty good off trail but aren't the fastest on trail. They're not really tree riding though, just powerlines, and goat paths up on the shore. We found some creek beds to play on and it was a stuckfest so that got me thinking about just going to a straight up mtn sled. I can see the point of a cross over up there because you can trail ride part of the day then explore through the forest on the way back but you don't really need a longtrack for the logging rds, but it would be more fun to just cut cross country to the next rd

Yeah I get it.  But with my personality I wouldn't be happy with the trail riding for the one part of the day.  And if the offtrail on the way home was fun terrain I'd also be wishing I was on something better suited.  I would just know it could be way better.  It's hard to unsee something.

Even if the crossover is 80% as good on the trail and 80% as good off the trail.  That sounds pretty good but if you like to push those limits on dedicated machines, 80% sucks.