xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Of course. Maybe an increase in cost of these services would drive better septic system, better roofing materials, etc This is Lily's best argument to remain under the dictatorship of capital. 'buy who'll mow my lawn????' Could be true. I worry that those will have a regressive effect. The increased wage for low income and middle class people would be offset by increases in building costs. It would be interesting to see if the social aspect of just not wanting to do that work was still a factor. That’s where this started. Sure we could in theory charge more and pay more, but do people want to do that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted January 25, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Could be true. I worry that those will have a regressive effect. The increased wage for low income and middle class people would be offset by increases in building costs. It would be interesting to see if the social aspect of just not wanting to do that work was still a factor. That’s where this started. Sure we could in theory charge more and pay more, but do people want to do that work? When wages go up and costs go up the end result is about the same as where you started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, steve from amherst said: That's depends on ones definition . I believe he is educated. Some will say that outside of plumbing he may be uneducated. Those are Hillary voters who say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Could be true. I worry that those will have a regressive effect. The increased wage for low income and middle class people would be offset by increases in building costs. It would be interesting to see if the social aspect of just not wanting to do that work was still a factor. That’s where this started. Sure we could in theory charge more and pay more, but do people want to do that work? This isn't entirely true. There are numerous economic multipliers present when incomes rise for those at the bottom of the income scale. The market determines the price of goods, not the producer. Sure, costs of production factor into what price a producer will take, but ultimately it's what the consumer is willing to pay that determines the final price. If the cost of production rises, that doesn't automatically mean that the price to the consumer will rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: This isn't entirely true. There are numerous economic multipliers present when incomes rise for those at the bottom of the income scale. The market determines the price of goods, not the producer. Sure, costs of production factor into what price a producer will take, but ultimately it's what the consumer is willing to pay that determines the final price. If the cost of production rises, that doesn't automatically mean that the price to the consumer will rise. That depends on the good itself. It has to be a high margin item for that to work. The problem is there are a lot of services and goods that don’t have a high margin. Computers, appliances, high end carpentry, etc.. that may be true, but the guy who runs the local honey wagon isn’t throwing hundos around without some serious scale working in his favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: That depends on the good itself. It has to be a high margin item for that to work. The problem is there are a lot of services and goods that don’t have a high margin. Computers, appliances, high end carpentry, etc.. that may be true, but the guy who runs the local honey wagon isn’t throwing hundos around without some serious scale working in his favor. I tend to agree with that. But let's be honest, in a macroeconomic sense, there's tons of room for an increase in wages. Record productivity, record profits, and stagnant wages demonstrate that very well. The value of labor is subjective, as this thread demonstrates. Some people won't pay $2k to pump their shitter and will do it themselves. I'd pay double that to not have to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: I tend to agree with that. But let's be honest, in a macroeconomic sense, there's tons of room for an increase in wages. Record productivity, record profits, and stagnant wages demonstrate that very well. The value of labor is subjective, as this thread demonstrates. Some people won't pay $2k to pump their shitter and will do it themselves. I'd pay double that to not have to do it. From a macro sense, wages have absolutely stagnated. That, I believe does have some onus on the consumer as well. It is not fair to completely blame the sba owner. Competition and access have done wonders for keeping prices on low margin goods down that have low barriers to entry. Prices are bracketed by that for a lot of the jobs we are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, motonoggin said: The market determines the price of goods, not the producer. Sure, costs of production factor into what price a producer will take, but ultimately it's what the consumer is willing to pay that determines the final price. If the cost of production rises, that doesn't automatically mean that the price to the consumer will rise. Sounds like capitalism bruh. Um, yes it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: That depends on the good itself. It has to be a high margin item for that to work. The problem is there are a lot of services and goods that don’t have a high margin. Computers, appliances, high end carpentry, etc.. that may be true, but the guy who runs the local honey wagon isn’t throwing hundos around without some serious scale working in his favor. I got a buddy who has a honey wagon business, he's like 32 and is throwing hundos like a boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, s pump said: I got a buddy who has a honey wagon business, he's like 32 and is throwing hundos like a boss. It isn’t the norm I’d be willing to bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: From a macro sense, wages have absolutely stagnated. That, I believe does have some onus on the consumer as well. It is not fair to completely blame the sba owner. Competition and access have done wonders for keeping prices on low margin goods down that have low barriers to entry. Prices are bracketed by that for a lot of the jobs we are talking about. Well, we've bumped squarely up against the major contradiction of capitalism, haven't we? Consumers, due to stagnant wages, are demanding cheaper products in order to preserve some standard of living. This puts downward pressure upon the costs of production. Which in turn puts downward pressure on wages. This is capitalism cannabilizing the very market is seeks to sell to. 2 minutes ago, s pump said: Sounds like capitalism bruh. Um, yes it does. No, just market economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: It isn’t the norm I’d be willing to bet. I don't know, Woolie was flippin hundos when he was in the shit can biz. Some of the less glamorous vocations aren't over run by the hoards so margins can be borderline criminal. Cringey, I know for some here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, s pump said: I don't know, Woolie was flippin hundos when he was in the shit can biz. Some of the less glamorous vocations aren't over run by the hoards so margins can be borderline criminal. Cringey, I know for some here. Well you are making moto’s point then hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, s pump said: I don't know, Woolie was flippin hundos when he was in the shit can biz. Some of the less glamorous vocations aren't over run by the hoards so margins can be borderline criminal. Cringey, I know for some here. If he's a one man operation, that's about as ethical an earning you can make in this environment. You get the full value of your labor and live quite comfortably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: If he's a one man operation, that's about as ethical an earning you can make in this environment. You get the full value of your labor and live quite comfortably. In addition, you're probably willing to pay a little more for better products because you have a few extra bucks lying around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: If he's a one man operation, that's about as ethical an earning you can make in this environment. You get the full value of your labor and live quite comfortably. Depends. Is the fee he is charging ethical if it is taking advantage of a lack of competition? Does he get to set the value of his labor on the back of people who have less power as consumers? Using a more equitable model that you are a proponent of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Well you are making moto’s point then hahaha. I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, s pump said: I think not. Haha sort of. They are intersecting at a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Haha sort of. They are intersecting at a minimum. And thats the rub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, MiSledder said: 2 teenagers in your house and you hire it done? No bootstraps in the gingers house I hired it before my kids were born till they were about 8. My son's been doing it the last 7 or 8 years except when he did his knee in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Depends. Is the fee he is charging ethical if it is taking advantage of a lack of competition? Does he get to set the value of his labor on the back of people who have less power as consumers? Using a more equitable model that you are a proponent of. Yes, it is, but less so. He's not exploiting someone else's labor, but he is still exploiting a market force, but that is largely self-regulating. Applying standard market forces, competition would arise once the price is deemed 'too much' by the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, MiSledder said: 2 teenagers in your house and you hire it done? No bootstraps in the gingers house I hired it before my kids were born till they were about 8. My son's been doing it the last 7 or 8 years except when he did his knee in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Yes, it is, but less so. He's not exploiting someone else's labor, but he is still exploiting a market force, but that is largely self-regulating. Applying standard market forces, competition would arise once the price is deemed 'too much' by the market. You're exhausting. You, of all people should know that if you apply yourself, maybe start a (illegal) business, cultivate a customer base, charge a premium for your premium product and in no time, you can be a bourgy too. Is your weed better than Dirty Don's weed down the street? You should get a better price no? Maybe if you get a better price for long enough, you will pull yourself out of the drab existence you seem to live. I don't know what to say Dan other than, I think you and your family would be better served working towards a better life for yourselves and let society evolve holistically rather than waste your breath on revolutionary diatribes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Yes, it is, but less so. He's not exploiting someone else's labor, but he is still exploiting a market force, but that is largely self-regulating. Applying standard market forces, competition would arise once the price is deemed 'too much' by the market. I think he had a few grown men that worked for him who couldn't seem to make it to work regularly and destroyed capital equipment at an alarming rate who made a market wage for their services. When they showed up. See that would be the problem in your utopia. A bunch of habitual stoners would be hard to motivate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, s pump said: You're exhausting. You, of all people should know that if you apply yourself, maybe start a (illegal) business, cultivate a customer base, charge a premium for your premium product and in no time, you can be a bourgy too. Is your weed better than Dirty Don's weed down the street? You should get a better price no? Maybe if you get a better price for long enough, you will pull yourself out of the drab existence you seem to live. I don't know what to say Dan other than, I think you and your family would be better served working towards a better life for yourselves and let society evolve holistically rather than waste your breath on revolutionary diatribes. I'm not really sure how to take this, but... I guess, okay? 1 hour ago, s pump said: I think he had a few grown men that worked for him who couldn't seem to make it to work regularly and destroyed capital equipment at an alarming rate who made a market wage for their services. When they showed up. See that would be the problem in your utopia. A bunch of habitual stoners would be hard to motivate. We were basing the example off a one man operation, just to clarify. If he's hiring labor that's unskilled, uncaring, and unmotivated maybe he just isn't paying enough. The market wage is obviously set too low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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