Many EV owners are switching back to gas-powered cars

[XCR1250]

$20,000 repair bills and other hidden costs that could sneak up on EV buyers

Cork Gaines

Sat, October 21, 2023 at 4:47 AM CDT·5 min read

 

• The switch to electric vehicles is still hampered by the high cost compared to gas cars.

• The higher upfront costs don't consider several less obvious costs that can hit after buying an EV.

• Things like repairs and insurance are also more expensive for EVs.

The price of electric vehicles is still the biggest hurdle to most consumers considering a switch from gas-powered cars, and they might not even be factoring in some of the hidden costs associated with them.

A man in Scotland was recently shocked by a £17,374 ($21,000) bill to fix his Tesla after rain damaged the battery.

"I thought we would get a bill for £500 or £1,000," Johnny Bacigalupo told Edinburgh Live. "When they said over 17 grand — it's absolutely obscene. My heart missed a beat, honestly."

While government tax credits can help with the initial vehicle purchase, EVs are still more expensive than gas cars, mainly because it costs a lot to make them. While there have been price cuts, automakers ramped up production, causing the demand — and prices — for parts to skyrocket, especially batteries.

The cost of the parts leads to issues that could make the cars much more expensive than the sales tag in the long run.

EV batteries are costly to repair and replace

Recurrent, a firm that studies battery health, surveyed 15,000 EV drivers in March and found that 1.5% needed battery replacements, which range between $5,000 and $20,000. The cars surveyed go back to 2011, but a vast majority were six years old or younger.

However, in some cases, it can cost even more.

Last year, a Tesla owner in Canada shared on TikTok that the company told him that a replacement battery would cost $26,000 when it died.

 

Ford Mustang Mach-E.The Washington Post/Getty Images

The batteries are easy to damage, difficult to repair, or even assess. Tesla's Model Y battery has "zero repairability" after a collision, according to auto expert Sandy Munro.

Replacing a battery is so costly, that it can often be more than the car is worth, forcing insurance companies to write them off.

Insurance is more expensive for EVs

Easy write-offs from insurance companies lead to higher premiums.

According to Bankrate, the average cost to insure a Tesla ranges from $2,503 annually to $4,066, depending on the model. Meanwhile, the US average for all cars is about $2,148.

Those premiums are driven by higher repair costs. While EVs need to be fixed less often than gas cars, those repairs are more expensive.

According to Mitchell, a collision repair software company, the average repair cost for a non-Tesla EV is $269 higher than the average for all vehicles. For Teslas, each repair is $1,347 more than average.

 

A Chevy Bolt.Mark Matousek / Business Insider

There is also specialized labor required.

"Those parts can be pricey," according to insurance provider Progressive. "If the battery pack is damaged, certain safety protocols are often necessary, adding more to the repair bill. Plus, there aren't as many shops with technicians trained to fix electric vehicles versus traditional vehicles."

Charging may require more than just a plug

Electricity prices can fluctuate greatly by state and time of year, but there are other less obvious costs associated with charging EVs.

According to a study from Anderson Economic Group, if other factors are considered, such as installing a charger and EV registration fees, most cars cost more to charge than to fuel with gas.

 

Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images

Most EV owners charge their cars at home and most vehicles come with a charger that can plug into a standard 110-volt home outlet. However, a long charge with this type of outlet may not be enough for some journeys: One driver of a Ford Mustang Mach-E told Insider they only got about 36 miles of range from an overnight charge.

To up the charging capacity, an owner needs access to a 240-volt outlet for a Level 2 charger, or can install one at home. They can purchase a Level 2 charger for between $200 to $1,000, depending on the features included. The installation adds about $1,000 to the total, according to Edmunds.

"If you don't have a Level 2, it's almost impossible," Bloomberg automotive analyst Kevin Tynan, who researches EVs, told Insider when asked about getting sufficient charge into an EV.

And if you do have a Level 2 charger at home, you might have to declare it on your home insurance policy, which could increase that premium.

Other factors to consider

Another issue with EV batteries is that nobody knows their lifespan. If people interested in used EVs are worried about replacing an expensive battery, the resale value will take a big hit.

Lifespan is also a factor with tires. Because the batteries on EVs are so heavy, the cars are heavier than comparable gas vehicles. As a result, the cars require more expensive tires and those tires have to be replaced sooner than traditional car tires.

There are also indirect costs, such as time.

There is a good chance an owner will be forced to go to a dealer for repairs due to the complexity. This has led to long wait times, a lack of competitive pricing, and poor replacement parts inventory.

The cost differences between EVs and other cars will improve. The sticker prices will continue to come down, and smaller EVs are expected to have the same initial cost as their gas equivalents by 2025.

 

Toyota dealershipToyota

In the meantime, many EV owners are switching back to gas-powered cars.

According to a University of California-Davis study of 4,167 people, about 20% of EV owners purchased a gas car the next time, with most citing charging headaches. Of those who switched, 70% did not have a Level 2 charger at home.

As of February, the EV market share has risen to 8.5%, up from 2.6% in 2020. However, according to JD Power, the number of people they surveyed earlier this year who are "very likely" to buy an EV has remained steady since 2022, while the percentage of those who say they won't switch to electric cars has grown.

[Frostynuts]

Yup, if anyone is dumb enough to want to experience one, lease it, and make sure everything is 100% covered under the agreement, for the full term of the lease.

It will be interesting to see if Hydrogen power can become competitive.

[Mainecat]

Seems like it would freeze ev sales…….lol

[revkevsdi]

1 hour ago, XCR1250 said:

$20,000 repair bills and other hidden costs that could sneak up on EV buyers

Cork Gaines

Sat, October 21, 2023 at 4:47 AM CDT·5 min read

 

 

• The switch to electric vehicles is still hampered by the high cost compared to gas cars.

• The higher upfront costs don't consider several less obvious costs that can hit after buying an EV.

• Things like repairs and insurance are also more expensive for EVs.

The price of electric vehicles is still the biggest hurdle to most consumers considering a switch from gas-powered cars, and they might not even be factoring in some of the hidden costs associated with them.

A man in Scotland was recently shocked by a £17,374 ($21,000) bill to fix his Tesla after rain damaged the battery.

"I thought we would get a bill for £500 or £1,000," Johnny Bacigalupo told Edinburgh Live. "When they said over 17 grand — it's absolutely obscene. My heart missed a beat, honestly."

While government tax credits can help with the initial vehicle purchase, EVs are still more expensive than gas cars, mainly because it costs a lot to make them. While there have been price cuts, automakers ramped up production, causing the demand — and prices — for parts to skyrocket, especially batteries.

The cost of the parts leads to issues that could make the cars much more expensive than the sales tag in the long run.

EV batteries are costly to repair and replace

Recurrent, a firm that studies battery health, surveyed 15,000 EV drivers in March and found that 1.5% needed battery replacements, which range between $5,000 and $20,000. The cars surveyed go back to 2011, but a vast majority were six years old or younger.

However, in some cases, it can cost even more.

Last year, a Tesla owner in Canada shared on TikTok that the company told him that a replacement battery would cost $26,000 when it died.

 

Ford Mustang Mach-E.The Washington Post/Getty Images

The batteries are easy to damage, difficult to repair, or even assess. Tesla's Model Y battery has "zero repairability" after a collision, according to auto expert Sandy Munro.

Replacing a battery is so costly, that it can often be more than the car is worth, forcing insurance companies to write them off.

Insurance is more expensive for EVs

Easy write-offs from insurance companies lead to higher premiums.

According to Bankrate, the average cost to insure a Tesla ranges from $2,503 annually to $4,066, depending on the model. Meanwhile, the US average for all cars is about $2,148.

Those premiums are driven by higher repair costs. While EVs need to be fixed less often than gas cars, those repairs are more expensive.

According to Mitchell, a collision repair software company, the average repair cost for a non-Tesla EV is $269 higher than the average for all vehicles. For Teslas, each repair is $1,347 more than average.

 

A Chevy Bolt.Mark Matousek / Business Insider

There is also specialized labor required.

"Those parts can be pricey," according to insurance provider Progressive. "If the battery pack is damaged, certain safety protocols are often necessary, adding more to the repair bill. Plus, there aren't as many shops with technicians trained to fix electric vehicles versus traditional vehicles."

Charging may require more than just a plug

Electricity prices can fluctuate greatly by state and time of year, but there are other less obvious costs associated with charging EVs.

According to a study from Anderson Economic Group, if other factors are considered, such as installing a charger and EV registration fees, most cars cost more to charge than to fuel with gas.

 

Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images

Most EV owners charge their cars at home and most vehicles come with a charger that can plug into a standard 110-volt home outlet. However, a long charge with this type of outlet may not be enough for some journeys: One driver of a Ford Mustang Mach-E told Insider they only got about 36 miles of range from an overnight charge.

To up the charging capacity, an owner needs access to a 240-volt outlet for a Level 2 charger, or can install one at home. They can purchase a Level 2 charger for between $200 to $1,000, depending on the features included. The installation adds about $1,000 to the total, according to Edmunds.

"If you don't have a Level 2, it's almost impossible," Bloomberg automotive analyst Kevin Tynan, who researches EVs, told Insider when asked about getting sufficient charge into an EV.

And if you do have a Level 2 charger at home, you might have to declare it on your home insurance policy, which could increase that premium.

Other factors to consider

Another issue with EV batteries is that nobody knows their lifespan. If people interested in used EVs are worried about replacing an expensive battery, the resale value will take a big hit.

Lifespan is also a factor with tires. Because the batteries on EVs are so heavy, the cars are heavier than comparable gas vehicles. As a result, the cars require more expensive tires and those tires have to be replaced sooner than traditional car tires.

There are also indirect costs, such as time.

There is a good chance an owner will be forced to go to a dealer for repairs due to the complexity. This has led to long wait times, a lack of competitive pricing, and poor replacement parts inventory.

The cost differences between EVs and other cars will improve. The sticker prices will continue to come down, and smaller EVs are expected to have the same initial cost as their gas equivalents by 2025.

 

Toyota dealershipToyota

In the meantime, many EV owners are switching back to gas-powered cars.

According to a University of California-Davis study of 4,167 people, about 20% of EV owners purchased a gas car the next time, with most citing charging headaches. Of those who switched, 70% did not have a Level 2 charger at home.

As of February, the EV market share has risen to 8.5%, up from 2.6% in 2020. However, according to JD Power, the number of people they surveyed earlier this year who are "very likely" to buy an EV has remained steady since 2022, while the percentage of those who say they won't switch to electric cars has grown.

Every year a large segment of the Mercan population are proud of their stupidity.  Meanwhile in well educated countries. 
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/what-norways-experience-reveals-about-the-ev-charging-market

but but electric cars don’t work in da cold. Derp derp. 

[revkevsdi]

Market share in Canada is growing even though the criminal master moron Ford is in charge of the most populated province and is running interference. 

[XCR1250]

China Restricts Exports Of A Key Mineral, Stoking U.S. Fears About Battery Supply Chains

Alexander C. Kaufman

Updated Fri, October 20, 2023 at 3:00 PM CDT·4 min read

83

A number of very large container ships carry out container handling operations at the automated terminal of Yangshan deep-water Port, Shanghai, China, July 21, 2023.

China has slapped export controls on graphite, a key mineral used to make steel and electric car batteries, ratcheting up a trade fight with the United States over the technologies needed to wean the world’s economy off planet-heating fossil fuels. 

The measures, announced Friday in a joint declaration from Beijing’s Ministry of Commerce and the General Administration of Customs, banned exports of artificial graphite, the natural flake version of the mineral, and products made with them unless the government grants permission. The restrictions take effect on Dec. 1. 

“Graphite is a key material that holds strategic significance in new-energy industry and global players are fiercely competing with one another in this sector,” Tian Yun, an economist in Beijing, told the Chinese nationalist newspaper Global Times. “It can be expected that similar moves will be more commonplace if the US continues to escalate sanctions in the technological field against China.”

The restrictions come as President Joe Biden has expanded the Trump administration’s trade war with China, placing export bans on technologies like the semiconductors needed to power artificial intelligence applications. The Biden administration is set to ramp up tariffs on Chinese-made solar equipment as Beijing provides its own factories with so much government support that even dairy companies are opening factories to churn out the materials for panels. In response, China in July put new export controls on two metals used to make computer chips and solar panels, gallium and germanium.

Employees work on the production line of lithium batteries at the workshop of a new energy lithium battery industrial park on Aug. 28 in Yichang, Hubei Province of China.

As with so many of the minerals required to make batteries, solar panels and other crucial energy hardware, China is the world’s top producer and exporter of graphite, generating 65% of the global supply and nearly 90% of the battery-grade version. The U.S. is the largest importer, followed by its allies in the European Union and South Korea, with whom Washington is now increasingly competing as America’s demand for graphite has grown in the past five years. Imports for consumption in the U.S. surged by more than 50% from 2021 to 2022, according to U.S. Geological Survey data. 

Yet the U.S. mines none of its own graphite. Three U.S. companies are looking to develop graphite mines in the U.S., two in Alabama and one in Alaska. In July, the Biden administration offered $37.5 million through grants issued via the Cold War-era Defense Production Act to boost the Alaskan project and support a processing facility in Washington state.

But demand is only expected to grow as funding from the Inflation Reduction Act, President Joe Biden’s landmark climate-spending law, spurs more automakers and battery companies to open factories in the U.S. 

“Virtually every lithium-ion battery chemistry uses graphite for its anode. China processes 90% of the world’s battery grade graphite. China has put export controls in place to protect national security,” Jay Turner, an environmental policy historian and author of a recent book on battery supply chains, wrote in a post on X, formerly Twitter. “Welcome to the new geopolitics of the clean energy transition.”

As the U.S. and its allies seek alternatives to China for various so-called critical minerals, the rush for graphite could put a new focus on countries in Africa. Madagascar, Mozambique and Tanzania have large reserves and increased mine production significantly from 2021 to 2022. The two countries with the largest reserves outside China are Brazil and Turkey, but mining increased only marginally in both places during that same period. 

The trade fight with China has spurred calls to mine and refine more metals in the U.S. But efforts to permit new mines have foundered as local opponents, fearful of the effects on water tables and general pollution, seek to block the permits at various levels of government. 

China’s dominance over the global supplies of critical minerals first came to light in 2010, when Beijing blocked shipments of rare earths, over which it enjoys a near monopoly, to Japan over a political dispute. While the U.S. and its allies have been slow to prioritize domestic mining and processing, China has continued to increase its share of global production and deepen ties with other major producers in Africa and Asia. 

Reluctant to simply become exporters of raw ore, which typically offers a minimal economic boost while generating a lot of pollution, many countries are now putting more government controls over mining, including creating incentives for Chinese, American and European companies to set up local processing plants. 

[revkevsdi]

6 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

China Restricts Exports Of A Key Mineral, Stoking U.S. Fears About Battery Supply Chains

Alexander C. Kaufman

Updated Fri, October 20, 2023 at 3:00 PM CDT·4 min read

83

 

A number of very large container ships carry out container handling operations at the automated terminal of Yangshan deep-water Port, Shanghai, China, July 21, 2023.

China has slapped export controls on graphite, a key mineral used to make steel and electric car batteries, ratcheting up a trade fight with the United States over the technologies needed to wean the world’s economy off planet-heating fossil fuels. 

The measures, announced Friday in a joint declaration from Beijing’s Ministry of Commerce and the General Administration of Customs, banned exports of artificial graphite, the natural flake version of the mineral, and products made with them unless the government grants permission. The restrictions take effect on Dec. 1. 

“Graphite is a key material that holds strategic significance in new-energy industry and global players are fiercely competing with one another in this sector,” Tian Yun, an economist in Beijing, told the Chinese nationalist newspaper Global Times. “It can be expected that similar moves will be more commonplace if the US continues to escalate sanctions in the technological field against China.”

The restrictions come as President Joe Biden has expanded the Trump administration’s trade war with China, placing export bans on technologies like the semiconductors needed to power artificial intelligence applications. The Biden administration is set to ramp up tariffs on Chinese-made solar equipment as Beijing provides its own factories with so much government support that even dairy companies are opening factories to churn out the materials for panels. In response, China in July put new export controls on two metals used to make computer chips and solar panels, gallium and germanium.

Employees work on the production line of lithium batteries at the workshop of a new energy lithium battery industrial park on Aug. 28 in Yichang, Hubei Province of China.

As with so many of the minerals required to make batteries, solar panels and other crucial energy hardware, China is the world’s top producer and exporter of graphite, generating 65% of the global supply and nearly 90% of the battery-grade version. The U.S. is the largest importer, followed by its allies in the European Union and South Korea, with whom Washington is now increasingly competing as America’s demand for graphite has grown in the past five years. Imports for consumption in the U.S. surged by more than 50% from 2021 to 2022, according to U.S. Geological Survey data. 

Yet the U.S. mines none of its own graphite. Three U.S. companies are looking to develop graphite mines in the U.S., two in Alabama and one in Alaska. In July, the Biden administration offered $37.5 million through grants issued via the Cold War-era Defense Production Act to boost the Alaskan project and support a processing facility in Washington state.

But demand is only expected to grow as funding from the Inflation Reduction Act, President Joe Biden’s landmark climate-spending law, spurs more automakers and battery companies to open factories in the U.S. 

“Virtually every lithium-ion battery chemistry uses graphite for its anode. China processes 90% of the world’s battery grade graphite. China has put export controls in place to protect national security,” Jay Turner, an environmental policy historian and author of a recent book on battery supply chains, wrote in a post on X, formerly Twitter. “Welcome to the new geopolitics of the clean energy transition.”

As the U.S. and its allies seek alternatives to China for various so-called critical minerals, the rush for graphite could put a new focus on countries in Africa. Madagascar, Mozambique and Tanzania have large reserves and increased mine production significantly from 2021 to 2022. The two countries with the largest reserves outside China are Brazil and Turkey, but mining increased only marginally in both places during that same period. 

The trade fight with China has spurred calls to mine and refine more metals in the U.S. But efforts to permit new mines have foundered as local opponents, fearful of the effects on water tables and general pollution, seek to block the permits at various levels of government. 

China’s dominance over the global supplies of critical minerals first came to light in 2010, when Beijing blocked shipments of rare earths, over which it enjoys a near monopoly, to Japan over a political dispute. While the U.S. and its allies have been slow to prioritize domestic mining and processing, China has continued to increase its share of global production and deepen ties with other major producers in Africa and Asia. 

Reluctant to simply become exporters of raw ore, which typically offers a minimal economic boost while generating a lot of pollution, many countries are now putting more government controls over mining, including creating incentives for Chinese, American and European companies to set up local processing plants. 

So China is acting like opec?  Hmmm. Do you realize that is a different issue from whether ev’s are good or not?  There are lots of stories of teslas racking up huge miles with little battery degradation or maintenance costs.  
 

Performance wise my ev6 handles really well and has great acceleration. For the some price as a 5 litre mustang I have a faster car with more room, all wheel drive and a 100,000 mile 8’year bumper to bumper warranty. In that time I’ll save 25-30,000 dollars on fuel and save lots of time by charging at home instead of gas stops. 

As long as it doesn’t depreciate 25,000 more than the mustang I’m money in the bank while have a better vehicle. 

[XCR1250]

Are electric cars more expensive to insure?

 

Stephanie Colestock

Mon, Oct 16, 20235 min read

 

Malte Mueller via Getty Images

Whether you’re considering an electric car for the cutting-edge technology, the fuel cost savings or the environmental benefits, it’s important to understand the specifics about EV insurance.

Despite their higher cost, there are more electric vehicles on the road than ever. Insurance companies, in turn, have responded with customized offerings.

Here’s what you need to know about how an EV auto insurance policy differs from traditional car insurance coverage – and what cost differences you should expect.

Insurance for electric vehicles: special considerations

You won’t be required to purchase a special electric vehicle auto insurance policy just because you drive an EV. Car insurance coverage is the same whether you have a gas-powered car or electric car, and there isn't any special policy you are mandated to buy outside of your state’s minimum required auto insurance coverage.

Depending on the coverage options you choose and even where you live, EV auto policies will include some combination of:

• Liability coverage, including property damage liability and bodily injury liability coverage, that pays out for others harmed in an accident you cause.

• Collision coverage, to repair or replace your vehicle if you’re involved in an accident where someone else isn’t the at-fault driver.

• Comprehensive coverage for other-than-collision damage, such as vandalism, theft or weather-related events.

• Uninsured motorist/underinsured motorist, in case you’re hit by another driver who doesn’t have auto insurance or whose limits aren’t enough to cover your losses.

• Personal injury protection (PIP), to cover your medical bills and other expenses from an accident like lost wages or home health care.

• Medical payments (Medpay) coverage, to help with things like co-pays, medical deductibles, prescriptions, and procedures following an accident.

Select EV drivers have the option of specialized EV auto insurance policies. This is especially true for drivers of certain Tesla models in select states, who can purchase coverage directly through the manufacturer. This Tesla auto insurance offers many of the same coverage options mentioned above in addition to gap insurance/auto loan protection in some areas.

In the future, carriers may begin offering EV auto insurance policies that also protect the vehicle’s high voltage battery, at-home charging stations, and other charging equipment and parts that aren’t covered by typical policies.

Electric car insurance costs (Hint: They’re higher)

While not always the case, you can usually count on EV insurance premiums being higher than those for conventional, gas-powered vehicles. The actual cost of your coverage will depend on your driving record, age, gender, location, credit history, coverage options, and the vehicle you drive.

There are also some special considerations and features of EVs that can impact your car insurance rates. Here are a few to keep in mind:

• Electric vehicles tend to have newer and more updated technology, which can be costly to replace and difficult to source.

• While the purchase cost of EVs has been gradually declining, these vehicles are still more expensive on average than comparable gas-powered vehicles. Because of the higher cost of replacement, carriers may charge more for full coverage, including comprehensive and collision coverage.

• If your EV is involved in an accident, the high-voltage battery, which powers the electric motor, could be damaged and need replacing. Depending on your vehicle, battery-pack replacement can cost tens of thousands of dollars.

• Parts for certain EVs may be limited due to small manufacturing processes. This can make the repair process notably more expensive and result in long delays.

• Not all repair shops are equipped to work on EVs, so your vehicle may need to go to a special shop following an accident. This can be more costly for your insurance company.

What about hybrid vehicles?

If you own a hybrid vehicle, you’ll encounter some of the same issues with auto insurance rates as EV owners. Hybrid cars have a high-voltage battery that maintains the charge on the vehicles’ electric motors. Repair and replacement can be expensive, and that cost is reflected in the policyholders’ premiums.

On the other hand, hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius are self-charging, so you won’t need to worry about installing a charger at your home.

 

 

When shopping around for a car insurance policy for your electric vehicle, keep these things in mind to get the right coverage and snag the right price:

• Research and compare car insurance companies that specialize in EV coverage; these carriers may have the best network of appraisers, parts suppliers, and body shops if and when you need repair. Some offer EV-related discounts that will save you money. For example, Farmers offers a discount to customers in California who drive electric or hybrid vehicles.

• When comparing carriers, ask whether the policy covers battery replacement, home charging stations or loss of use coverage, and if other additional coverages are available. While this isn’t common yet, you may find a carrier that covers accessories and auxiliary costs involved with your electric vehicle.

• Be sure to take advantage of rebates, tax credits, discounts, and incentives offered to EV drivers. These might include extra savings for vehicles with autonomous/self-driving or special security features.

• Request car insurance quotes from multiple carriers — including your renters or homeowners insurance provider. Bundling policies with one carrier is a tried-and-true way to get the cheapest rates.

• Lastly, read your policy terms and conditions carefully so you understand what is and is not covered. You may want to add supplemental coverage or increase your existing coverage limits to better protect yourself.

 

Electric vehicles are growing in popularity because of their low emissions and fuel savings. But EVs are still new enough that replacing or repairing them is very costly. Because of this, you should expect to pay more for insurance.

[awful knawful]

39 minutes ago, revkevsdi said:

Market share in Canada is growing even though the criminal master moron Ford is in charge of the most populated province and is running interference. 

People in Ontario are retarded.