Ziemann

Jim- Frankly- I'm about as unbiased as anyone. Hell, I own a Polaris Matryx with 3 "DO NOT RIDE" recalls on it. :-P I have NOT ridden a Catalyst, but would love to. I have not bashed the sled at all. But have taken the position that until proven otherwise- it's nothing special. I'm not ready to crown it "King of Snow" yet. That has to be earned. The funny thing is, Jim- you probably know more about me than most people here do....

Are you saying that he's not credible?

BINGO! Well stated. If you want to impress me, put the Catalyst in the hands of a bunch of Polaris and Ski-Doo owners, and have them come away impressed. Anything else is pretty much marketing hype.

Oh yes. Chain Cases are so hard.....Jesus. People are going to flock to Cat dealers by the bus load so they don't have to crack open a chain case. Best handling? Possibly. But I think most people understand that evaluations from a bunch of Cat people and media that have Textron as a paid advertiser are hardly unbiased...... They are slightly more credible than you Jim....

Actually- if you do a search, you will see that a lot of the initial pics from the launch were from me. Just say'in.... And PLEASE- tell me how I'm wrong about it being a Me Too sled. Again, it accomplishes a couple of critical goals: 1. It allows Cat to be competitive with the offerings of Polaris and Ski-Doo. 2. It provides a competitive product for former diehard Cat customers to purchase. Sales will improve for Textron/Cat. Hell, I'll give the Catalyst a fair shot- but I won't be a first year Guinea Pig. Been there and done that several times. I feel like a battered spouse.....

Woohoo! Customers are going to be flocking to Cat dealers (if they can find one) to buy a Catalyst's progressive steering and belt drive! I see their market share numbers going through the roof as a result! Come on! (best Joe Biden voice) Do you seriously think that the average sled consumer gives two shits about those features? And that's how you think Cat is going to differentiate the Catalyst in the marketplace??? Me Too......at best.......

Oh I did. I get it. It's special.....

You partially made my point for me. If you take your green blinders off, what exactly has Cat done to differentiate the Catalyst in the marketplace that matters to the average consumer? Help me see the light. On paper, it is comparable to Polaris and Ski-Doo. But there's nothing there that really helps the Catalyst stand out. Thus the "Me Too" label. Granted, the Catalyst is a huge leap forward for Cat, but there really isn't anything there that screams "I need to have that"- unless you are a diehard Cat guy. Will sales improve? Yes. Does it give Cat a fighting chance of getting back its lost customers? Yes. It needs to vastly exceed the offerings of Polaris and Ski-Doo if they expect to move the needle in terms of market share.

Ummmm... We really do live in different worlds @Doug :-) That thing really is huge! I looked up that Case IH/Steiger : Operating Weight 39,325 lbs (17,838 kg) What is interesting is this year, the Governor's Council and DNR said that they would not fund trail/bridge projects to accommodate new equipment like this. So, a machine that heavy could be a huge issue if you have bridges that were built to DNR spec. What was happening is that clubs were purchasing this type of equipment, and then trying to get the Governor's Council/DNR to pay for the infrastructure upgrades.

Agreed- that is ideal. Unfortunately, riders tend to just ride down the middle of a trail, and fail to pack the edges. Frost penetration isn't complete, and the edges remain soft. We seem to run in to unexpected wet areas every year. Factors such as beavers, clogged creeks/ culverts, and bubbling springs seem to throw a curve ball at us every year. It's different every year. When you have 2+ feet of snow on the ground in early December, it is sometimes tough to know what is underneath. We send trail crews out to clear/clean trails in the fall, but we still run in to unexpected trail issues.

Because that sled catered to the hardcore rider. AND The Suzuki engines in the SnoPro chassis could be run WFO forever, and somehow held together. They were truly remarkable. I am looking for a sled for a step son who is a student at Michigan Tech in Houghton. I can't find a reasonably priced and clean SnoPro anywhere. It would be the perfect sled for him if I could find a clean (and reasonably priced) one.

Reasonable point. I tend to think that the SnoPro chassis catered more to the hardcore riders, and the Twin Spar catered to the plush trail riding crowd. Was the Procross really a big leap forward from the Twin Spar????? I think not. But the SnoPro chassis was 100% a big leap forward from the Twin Spar.

Jim is delusional if he thinks the Cat 858 won't quickly be overshadowed by releases from Polaris and Ski-Doo. I have said all along that the Catalyst is nothing more than a "me too" sled. They have done nothing to differentiate themselves in the market, and once this initial euphoria subsides, they will once again fade to the back. With that said, I WILL evaluate the Catalyst when it is time to order a new sled. They have released what I asked for, and I suspect that there are a lot of former Cat loyalists that will give it a fair shot. But a "me too" effort isn't going to be enough to get people to change brands. They must exceed what is being offered by Polaris and Doo if they want to increase marketshare. I look forward to a Catalyst test ride. It'll be fun to see if it lives up to the hype and can sway me back to Team Green. I now have 4000 miles on the Polaris Matryx chassis, and am very satisfied with the VR-1. Cat has their work cut out for them, and will have to do more than "Me Too" to earn my business back.

To this day, I think that the SnoPro chassis was the pinnacle of handling & durability for Cat. You could flog that chassis relentlessly, and it was solid. Jump it? It landed flat. It was very forgiving, and predictable. I loved that chassis, and think Cat could have done more with that chassis to cater to the hardcore crowd.

I tend to think that the SnoPro chassis was the first REAL example of rider forward for Cat and was WAY ahead of the Procross in terms of ergonomics, handling, and being rider forward. You cannot look at this sled and say that it is not Rider Forward.

Just a note- Everywhere is different. We tend to get early snow, and often deep snow before the ground is frozen. As such, a tractor is not a good option where we live. The ground pressure of a Tucker is dramatically less than what we had with the New Holland tractors. Since switching, we haven't had any issues like these:

Agreed 100% @Doug. There is no single piece of equipment that works for everyone. Terrain, snow conditions, trail system, swamps, bridges, etc. all play in to what is best for a particular club. Clubs that aren't open minded will struggle. In 2020 & 2021, we had some neighboring clubs do the first grooming passes of the season with their groomers thru our swamps. We just couldn't do it with a 22,000+ lbs New Holland T7. Once those neighboring clubs were able to make a first pass, the swamps then froze down well, and we were able to get thru with a T7. It brought to light the limitations of the equipment we had, how it delayed getting trails open, and the loss of revenue due to decreased grooming hours. I encourage clubs to attend groomer shows, and stay educated on all of the equipment that is out there- otherwise how else is a club going to be able to make a good educated decision?

This is a better pic of the pan's hydraulics. On this day, it was really starting to thin w/ temps nearing 36+ degrees. I believe this was the second week in April here in NW Wisconsin.

The key is an adjustable pan (Trail Setter or Trail Paver drag). When the snow starts to ball up, you adjust the front of the pan up to increase flow. Being able to move that pan front and back opens up a world of new possibilities. That style of drag is much more forgiving in the spring. I believe we were well in to April here in NW Wisconsin when I took that pic. Impact on the base is negligible. Once the April sun drops back behind the trees, the base firms up well and is rock hard by morning.

Like the early Cat 800's?

Agreed 100%

Worse yet- has anyone located a dealer NOT buried in recall work that can actually get my sled done?

Agreed 100% Chris. No one has confidence in Cat's engines like they did with the Suzuki's.

Speculation. Cat's 800 had early reliability issues, but you denied that as well. "No one is coming out with bigger engines." NOW, that is a stupid assumption. Do you actually think Ski-Doo and Polaris are going to allow Cat's 858 to be the largest engine in that market segment? How much glue to you huff nightly? Jim- do you even believe your own bullshit? When you type this stuff out, do you think to yourself "That will convince them....."

Grooming on a 30 degree day..... Sticky was the word for the day.....