jdsky

9 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

I appreciate your passion to never give in, even when youve clearly lost. Let me guess, Porsche is better then Bugatti?

Just shut the fuck up and admit marketshare is only indicitive of a good product, but not the best. Just ask McLaren.

First, you are the passionate one about this topic trying to prove that cat somehow only cares about building performance sleds and gives two shits about selling them in relevant numbers, generating revenues and profits which goes hand in hand with taking market share from your competition.

The feeble attempt to somehow tie in a highly profitable and successful exotic car company and attempt to try to equate what cat does is fucking ridiculous and just plain dumb.  Now you bring McLaren into the mix.  What do they have to do with cats success or extreme lack of it? 

Have you driven a 720s?  I have.  Have you driven a GT?  I have.  Fucking amazing cars, insanely fast and THE BEST at nearly everything exotic cars do.  In no universe does a 720s have anything to do with any product ever developed or sold by cat.  Cats products have been so far from being the best over the past two decades the company was financially fucked. 

I really don't have the coin to buy exotics but my brother does.  He started his journey buying a couple of Lambo's then a couple of McLarens and now he has his first Ferrari.  Bought it used but he is wondering if he would ever want a new one as he has done really well buying very low mileage barely driven cars that have taken whatever depreciation hit they do in the first couple of years.  Then when he gets tired of the car sells it and moves on to another low mileage used, usually still under full manufacturer warranty or in the case of the McLarens just purchase an annual service contract that covers everything that could go wrong with the car for the low low price of $5K per year.

The used Ferrari he recently bought comes with all maintenance included for the next 3 years so running costs are not that bad all things considered.  Once the initial depreciation hit happens his cars have all held their values fairly well - up until recently anyway.  Ferrari values historically do well compared to the others.  

9 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

You are correct,  but $700 is a lot excessive as fuel cost at the moment are down.

Did you even ask your dealer if the $700 logistics surcharge includes destination and setup fees?  

9 hours ago, krom said:

Brp has received a lot of financial help from the Canadian government, in the form of low or no interest loans, when they couldn't get the money from traditional sources. 

You would know that, if you could read those financial reports that you mentioned. 

Also if you could read a website, you might be able to realize that ac is not charging any such thing as a logistics surcharge, just $700 freight. Poo and doo charge freight as well. 

You guys love to quote old shit from decades ago.  Any form of government help was prior to the formation of BRP the PUBLIC company.  You haven't read a single financial report in your life.

As for the charge.  Here is the disclaimer from cats website.  Plus destination charge and setup.  Logistics surcharge of $700. 

You have part of it right. BRP charges a destination (shipping) and setup charge but they do not have any Logistics surcharge. 

Nothing has changed.  If you are not already a preferred customer or have an established relationship with a dealer you start by buying them used and eventually get the opportunity to buy one new.

They have done really well modelling their business after arctic cat.

12 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

Are we sure they do care about market share? 

How many cars do they make?  What is their production capacity?  Are they operating at a profit?  Isn’t the goal of any corporation to make money?  Can they make more money without increasing market share?  Would it be considered a failure if they sold more cars, but lost market share (because the entire market grows)?

Pick any manufacturer.  Is their goal to increase market share or profits or both?  It seems like consumers care about market share, and manufacturers care about revenue and profit.  Am I wrong?

Short answer?  They care about all three. Revenue, profits and market share.  Again, stinki picks a ridiculous comparison.  Ferrari and Cat could not be any further apart.  Cat is not a leader in their specific market and has sucked so bad for so many years at generating BOTH revenue and profits they worked themselves nearly completely out of business if it had not been for Textron bailing them out financially.

Last time I checked Ferrari is doing just fine competing against, name any other exotic sports car manufacturer, and actually generates revenues, profits and is considered a leader in their product category....

But yes, if you want to compare cat to Ferrari based on the fact that cat sells about as many snowmobiles each year as Ferrari sells sports cars I guess that would be about the only business comparison one could attempt to make.

8 hours ago, krom said:

You and Jim love proving to the world how stupid you are, don't you... 

How many times has your brain dead ass posted the same bullshit claims, and I've proven you wrong by replying.... 

Let me guess, you're not smart enough to use the dealer locator on doos website..... 

10 seconds of searching, that you aren't smart enough to do on your own... 

35 sleds 2k off rebates: https://www.psutica.com/search/inventory/availability/In Stock/type/Snowmobile/usage/New

23 sleds usualy lower prices that the first one 

https://www.smithmarineagain.com/default.asp?page=xNewInventory

20 

https://www.arcticadventures.com/search/inventory/availability/In Stock/brand/Ski-Doo

 

 

Thank's krommer.  Checked the links.  One has full boat retail prices.  Another has zero pricing listed at all.  As I responded earlier BRP does not have any factory rebates on 23's but I will give them a call to see if they are offering $2K off.

Seems there was a spell check on my earlier post.  It was Coxsackie, New York..... 

2 hours ago, krom said:

Have him call the north east, there are plenty of doo's stacked up at every dealership. They are offering $2k off. 

Do everyone on here a favor and post a link to any dealer offering $2K off leftover 23's.  The last cat holdout in our group took one look at the prices including the $700 additional fuck you in the ass charge and is now looking for something else.  Would happily pay shipping for one of these stacked up fire sale doo sleds you keep talking about. 

I find nothing at all for doo listed in all of NE USA on CL.  When our dealers in the midwest get overloaded with leftover sleds they put them on the list with discounts.  There is next to nothing out there.  I did find a dealer in Cocksucker, NY with a grand total of 4 23's listed and they are not on fire sale.

14 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

The blast was literally “designed” to not waste the r&d money from the snow bike motor numb nuts. You’re completely ignoring my original statement that cat put themselves in the financial position to get where they are now, I’m not saying they’re releasing a bunch of stuff tomorrow and I’m not saying they’re the niche performance snowmobile company they used to be. I’m saying that’s what they were and that’s what got them here.

And it's still what they are until they actually ship something relevant which they have not.  

Bring on the marching band, cat sold out of spring orders!  This is huge news for cat.  Two dealers I work with sold out of spring orders last season.  They will be selling out again.  It's called limited supply. 

How many catalysts did each dealer even get to take orders for?  Anyone actually know?  My dealer tried to order 150 more sleds than he could get his hands on last year.  That might be the total number of catalysts getting built for 24'.  

The best part is I'm not mad but am a little ticked off that all I can afford is a shitty blast.  Hopefully once I am finally successful enough and able to afford one I can join the rally cry of all the other performance oriented niche market cat buyers.

4 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

The blast is evidence of it as it’s a stop loss for the r&d of the 400 single for the snow bike…..

Everyone knows cat was testing their home built 850 and 900 before the ctec came out, released the ctec 800 when Doo released the 850, you don’t think they had every intention of a bigger motor at least on time with polaris? They went out of business at about that exact same time.

 

Maybe you have no basic understanding of business if you think textron would ever come in on a fledgling company and throw a fuck ton of money at them before they show they can turn a profit.

 

If you think Cat not having a real presence in 4 seasons worth of markets affects their snow division and company as a whole compared to the other 2 players you’re even dumber than you come across as on the Internet.

The blast is more evidence of releasing shit that buyers in the market could care less about.  It is also the most cheap looking piece of garbage to ever hit dealer showrooms in a really long time.  Evidence that cats innovation is still nonexistent and yes that first to market 850 that you say "everyone knows about" is still not in the market for 2024 and who knows when it will finally be available for fans to beta test like that shitty 800 was when it was throwing flames everywhere they went. 

7 hours ago, Palu49 said:

Ski Doo is mostly funded by the Canadian government so they’re probably better off selling shit cheap to show less profit and get more cash.

More bullshit.  BRP is not funded by the Canadian government anymore than Polaris would be.  They are a publicly traded company and as such all of their financials are public record.  

Their sleds seem to be less this year because their prices have not gone up as much as the competition.  Obviously because cat only markets high performance sleds to a very small niche they must have finally figured out that these guys will pay big bucks for super high performance 600's.  They also figured out these buyers are also willing to pay an additional $700 fuck me up the ass charge.

7 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

I think you’re beginning to become (maybe already were I haven’t paid attention) just as dumb as Jim.
 

I never said they’ve had the best sleds for decades I said they hung their hat on a performance niche in the industry. That in turn kept them from diversifying from their main product line, which is a dying market.
 

BRP was always going to be big, polaris made themselves big by diversifying their product lines, with good product, at the right time. That diversity and growing of the company that polaris did put them in a situation where they have/had a lot of capital to pump into the snow division and it shows. The lack of diversity and staying a small company prevented cat from expanding and eventually put them out of business and into the hands of a major penny pinching corporation that’s only going to invest more once they know it’s going to make them money.

 

There’s not one single excuse for cat in there, they did it to themselves, it’s just the facts of the situation at hand and literally pointing the finger at Cat for how fucked up of a company they are/were. If textron didn’t have to bail out cat and sort out all of their bullshit in the process the catalyst or something else would’ve been out a lot sooner.

 

Cat had motors, chassis, snow bikes and I’m sure a bunch of other shit in development and “ready” to release before textron. They had the shit ready to go, they didn’t have the money to make it go. If you look back to my diversity portion you may find a direct correlation to why that is (or maybe not you don’t seem that smart).

Diversity of product is the worst excuse ever and Cat has not been failing because the market does not like "performance oriented" sleds.  It's because their shitty products were inferior from top to bottom and in so many ways that few would spend their hard earned money on them shortly after the year 2000.  Fucking business 101 but cat diehards have found a million creative ways to make it sound like cat is still the leader or could have been a leader if just - enter excuse here.

If as you say they had all of this awesome and innovative product just waiting to go and all they needed was a few bucks there is zero fucking evidence of that based on what has happened over the past six years.  Textron knows jack shit about the sled market but they do know enough about business to turn a profit and if spending some of it was going to immediately launch the cat brand into being a market leader they would have written that check a few micro-seconds after taking over.

BRP is not the overall leader in sales because they have money or the backing of canada or diversity of product lines.  It's because more people write checks for their sleds and proof of that is readily available in every public shareholders report.  Poo is profitable in the sled market for the same exact fucking reasons.  More people write checks for their sleds than arctic cat and yamaha combined and because they are also smart enough to understand what the market wants and then proceed to design and market products to meet that demand.

Maybe you have no basic understanding of business and how delivering products that people want to buy provides the money to continue to build even more products that customers want to buy.  Maybe cat had the catalyst in 2010 and was just too fucking stupid or poor to bring it to market.  Maybe they actually had an 850 long before Doo and Poo had one, they were just too fucked up as a company internally to bring it to market. Because you know, they were so focused on performance that they instead delivered the shittiest performing 800 in recent history of modern 800 engines. 

At this point whatever fantastic sledding innovation it is that they are sitting on would not only be an indicator that there are plenty of idiots still steering the ship but also that non of that unleashed innovation means jack shit to anyone ordering a sled for 2024.     

1 minute ago, stinkipinki said:

SXS's didnt really get popular until the mid 2000s, Yamaha didnt even release the Rhino until like 03 and even then it was a shocker to the ATV industry.

Cat will be fine, in a few years, with how good of a job they did with Catalyst they'll be back to having solid market share. 

The first ATV I bought new was a 97' poolaris.  The cat ATV lineup was a joke in comparison and poo was able to dominate in sales.  Poo applied the same savvy to SxS's and again, dominated brands like Honda and Yamaha that were fucking huge in comparison and had nearly unlimited resources compared to poo at that time.

When I bought a pair of new SxS's in 2013 I looked at everything as I always do when spending that kind of cash.  For what we needed poo was the only brand that offered it all specific to engine and features.  We still have the fucking things and they have been reliable and contrary to popular internet forum beliefs neither have started on fire.

So, they have the bestest sleds out there for decades but can't lead the market because they are just too small or too stupid to make money in other product categories?  Absofuckinglutely ridiculous.  They have zero excuse of being small when owned by a company that has all the necessary resources and should be able to overcome outside forces like supply chain and manufacturing if that is all that is needed to propel them to the top.  Textron has owned them for 6 years now. 

The only excuse at this point is that cat was in such a fucking bad place product wise that it is now going to take decades to overcome all of the issues and that's only if textron has the patience for it.  The fans excuses are just endless and completely detached from the reality of the situation.  Cat, like many companies that at one time had innovation engrained in their DNA, thought their fans would never leave no matter how inferior and irrelevant their products became.  

There is zero reason the catalyst, or something extremely close to it, did not exist at a minimum 5 or more years ago and it really should have existed at a time when a suzuki engine was powering it.  Cat just did not want to bend and pay a royalty like poo did and poo is so much further ahead now that they did.  That had zero to do with how many ATVs and SxS's poo sells every year. 

9 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I don't know why I couldn't find those, sorry for being dense.  If I were a newby, these web sites would be a complete waste of time.  Because I know what I'm looking for, these web sites are all a waste of time.  Very confusing (and software with a web interface is my day job).

To be honest, Cat isn't going to gain market share for a couple more years, and it has nothing to do with their web site, their prices or their weight.  They're only making so many.  If they could make an unlimited number, then maybe they would.  If they could make more, they'd also expand their lineup and fill a few more gaps.  It takes money to make money, and Cat isn't ready yet to push for greater market share.

When I first looked at the 2024 Polaris lineup last night, I didn't see more than 2-3 650 models and no S4 engine.  It took me a while to figure out how to search for those.  But, for a few minutes I was ready to call my stock broker this morning to sell my Polaris stock, because I got really nervous when it looked like Polaris had cut way back on the number of models offered.

Overall, from what I can tell Ski Doo and Polaris have a good lineup and I like what I've seen.  Except for water injection, this was just an incremental year for them both (I'm still of the opinion that water injection is not going to be anything more than a novelty.  I'm sure it will work fine.  I doubt anyone else will try it).  I also believe they have too many models.  Their profitability per unit sold is bound to be affected by their pursuit of market share.  

Maybe Cat's prices will make a difference, not sure.  I bought a Riot, in part, because they were cheaper at the time.  Are there people who will be swayed by price?  Maybe.  However, I think there are other factors that are much more influential: 

Brand loyalty,

Production capacity and model availability,

General confusion about what's available and an inability to compare,

Being influenced by a dealer about which one they should buy. 

I'll bet the only time the price will enter the equation is when someone else brings it up - a dealer, a friend, or a keyboard expert.  If we all shut up about price, I'll bet a the number of people who bought a competitor's model based on price would be extremely small.

Completely agree that the websites are not easy to navigate or find specific info on.  Regarding sales every manufacturer is having constraint issues and problems producing in the volumes they would like to in order to meet demand.  Only the leadership at textron/cat actually knows if they are having more difficulty with their supply chain than their competition.

The bottom line is there can be only two reasons for not selling more than their competitors.  They really just suck at supply chain and manufacturing or there is overall less demand for their products vs the competition.   There is no other reason for not gaining share if the product is truly superior in every meaningful way to consumers. 

There is also zero reason to defend a brand when it is sucking in the market unless they pay you to do so.  Otherwise it's just being a blind fan which I am not insinuating that you in particular are one of those.  I spend my money on shit I think is the best option for me.  I have owned my share of cats in the past and was a fan.  When they stopped making what I considered to be the best product, or even a decent product compared to the competition I had zero fucking reasons to keep spending my money on their shit.  If at some point if they can prove they are producing a better product I will consider it but I'm not buying just so I can dust off my 1990's riding gear....

2 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

You think Porsche and Ferrari care about marketshare? Or making the most badass car?

They absolutely 100% care about their position in the market and sales.  It's all that fucking matters to any business owners or share holders.  Who do you think Porsche or Ferrari compare themselves to?  Fucking arctic cat?  Get real.

1 minute ago, stinkipinki said:

Cat have never tried to 'gain market share' even though in the mid 2000s they had like 35% with the Firecats.

Said nobody in business fucking ever...

6 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Cat won't show weights until the Production sleds are ready. 

Not that I really need to reply to your bullshit but just like they have always provided that information in the spec sheets previously?  Here's one.  Point out where that info is located....

Poo also has weights posted in their specs.  For the SP 650 137 it's 499lbs.  For some fucking reason cat is not as proud of their sled weights as some of their brand fans are other than "it sure feels light and playful."  Of course it does when directly compared to a fucking procross.  That's called a riding position that is completely different and just like doo and poo have had for years and years now.

Will they sell every one they can produce?  Of course they will, that's why they priced them so high.  Exactly how many will they sell for 2024?  Nobody will ever know until someone is able to post market share to see if cat has made any progress.

My guess?  They won't gain any significant share for 24 because only fucking dumstads will pay more for all the old chassis' they are still pushing and a shit ton of enthusiasts of the sport have no interest in buying a 600 and are going to be shocked when the poo 650 spanks it across a lake. 

26 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I was just poking around Polaris and Ski Doo to do the same, see where prices are:

MXZ Adrenaline 600R (only available with a 129" track) - $13,049 (US)

These are just base sleds, no options.  Nor, does it look like any of them are offered with many options, other than the addons like a windshield or tunnel bag.  I can't find weights or horsepower numbers on any of them, either.

The Doo is available in either a 129 or 137 option and the weights are right on the spec sheet.  465lbs for the 129 version and that is with electric start. 

Regardless of the shit that keeps getting posted everyone has known for years that the procross is/was heavier and the fucking catalyst will be within a few pounds but again, who the fuck really cares?  I don't make my sled buying decisions based on a few pounds.

The single largest factor for 24'?  The doo is no longer the most expensive sled on the market.  That is significant for most people shopping without their fucking dumstad goggles on.

Add to that anyone that finances is at 7 or 8%.  Something's gotta give eventually.

Yep, you need to add 700 bucks to the price in order to compare.  

Man those 07' phazer 500 4 strokes were absolute fucking garbage handling sleds.  A rider in our group had to rent one and I hopped on it just for shits.  The shittiest handling thing ever and that anemic 4 stroke motor just made it worse.  He took it back to the rental place that same day.  Not riding at all was better than riding that thing. 

34 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said:

I’m sure some people will pay up for the catalyst being it’s the new thing. 22k for a Thundercat lol. My bud wants to upgrade his 20 winder for a new one I sent him a screenshot of the Thundercat price he said he’ll keep riding his 20 he paid 14k for new.

That's also what I paid for my 20'.  What's the new yamacat going to be?  $25K?  At least I'm not riding the most expensive brand anymore.  Cat definitely decided to lead just with high prices. 

Will be interesting to see what Poo does on the pricing side.  Now that they know what the competition is doing they could easily undercut everyone and drive a lot of Spring orders.  They had the most leftover sleds at my dealers so might not be a bad strategy for them.