Sounds as though Polaris is bringing more whupass this year...

“Check out the new purpose built 600 Patriot cross country engine with 8% more power, 3 stage electronic EVs, 4 injector setup like the boost, more stator power, smart hand warmers, ability to run 7s gauge, and more – very excited for these upgrades!”

https://snowgoer.com/news/polaris-unveils-2025-race-snowmobiles-one-with-a-new-engine/32661/

 

 

20 minutes ago, mnstang said:

I don't know the other rules, is EFI tuning allowed?

Race fuel is commercially available so I wouldn't even call using it a loophole that's just well within the rules.  There are plenty of race fuels available that can significantly increase power even on a stock pump gas engine.  The fuels just have more energy and more oxygen.  If they are allowed and any of these big $ teams want to win, they'd be bad at what they're doing to not use it.

I don't know for sure but I would imagine yes, especially under the ISR regulations. They don't stipulate what jets you can run in your carb sled. I could see under the old USXC specific rules it perhaps not being allowed, but even if it were, there's only so much power that can be made reliably on 91.

It sounds like many were unaware of the rule change until recently.

4 hours ago, mnstang said:

I don't know the other rules, is EFI tuning allowed?

Race fuel is commercially available so I wouldn't even call using it a loophole that's just well within the rules.  There are plenty of race fuels available that can significantly increase power even on a stock pump gas engine.  The fuels just have more energy and more oxygen.  If they are allowed and any of these big $ teams want to win, they'd be bad at what they're doing to not use it.

 

3 hours ago, Premium said:

I don't know for sure but I would imagine yes, especially under the ISR regulations. They don't stipulate what jets you can run in your carb sled. I could see under the old USXC specific rules it perhaps not being allowed, but even if it were, there's only so much power that can be made reliably on 91.

It sounds like many were unaware of the rule change until recently.

Oh hell yeah you can flash your ECU's.  

Could do it in the USXC days too.

Wish it was a 91 octane rule.  Not many are giddy to get that $900 drum of 110 at the beginning of the season.

35 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

 

Oh hell yeah you can flash your ECU's.  

Could do it in the USXC days too.

Wish it was a 91 octane rule.  Not many are giddy to get that $900 drum of 110 at the beginning of the season.

Yeah it definitely seems like cost will be a big factor now.

I agree, I'd prefer a return to that USXC 91 octane rule. There needs to some restraint in the stock class in particular, that's what lends it credibility in the eyes of the consumer.

Edited September 19, 20241 yr by Premium

1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

 

Oh hell yeah you can flash your ECU's.  

Could do it in the USXC days too.

Wish it was a 91 octane rule.  Not many are giddy to get that $900 drum of 110 at the beginning of the season.

It’s racing, $900 is nothing. 

6 minutes ago, AK440 said:

It’s racing, $900 is nothing. 

Until you buy 2-3-4-5 barrels a season.

26 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

Until you buy 2-3-4-5 barrels a season.

They need to work out a deal with fuel distributor to bring a truck down and you can’t use your own on race day. Where most of these races are it’s probably the same supplier 

Or just go back to 91 octane pump gasoline requirements haha

33 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

They need to work out a deal with fuel distributor to bring a truck down and you can’t use your own on race day. Where most of these races are it’s probably the same supplier 

I think you'd have a challenging time getting a supplier to show up with a truck for the weekend.

Aside from the full mod sleds (Pro Open and Sport Open), I don't think anyone would mix more then 100 octane, so you are mixing about 50/50 with 91, you'll have a bunch of people running 91, and your lower classes will run 91.

I could be wrong though, usually am.

Not sure how the sno-x sleds operate, but don't they all run 110 or whatever it is they run?  One supplier and captive racers makes it easier to have a fuel supplier on site.

Edited September 19, 20241 yr by racinfarmer

1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

Until you buy 2-3-4-5 barrels a season.

Most guys I know mix race fuel with pump gas. Unless the EFI is tuned for 100% race gas, the XC race sleds don’t run better on it. I’ve seen the Ski-doo’s run worse. 
 

For as broke as Cat is, I don’t see them having the budget to create a new map for race gas. They can’t even sell enough SX race sleds to meet the minimum build number of 125. 

Edited September 19, 20241 yr by AK440

41 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

I think you'd have a challenging time getting a supplier to show up with a truck for the weekend.

Aside from the full mod sleds (Pro Open and Sport Open), I don't think anyone would mix more then 100 octane, so you are mixing about 50/50 with 91, you'll have a bunch of people running 91, and your lower classes will run 91.

I could be wrong though, usually am.

Not sure how the sno-x sleds operate, but don't they all run 110 or whatever it is they run?  One supplier and captive racers makes it easier to have a fuel supplier on site.

Sx has a fuel requirement and they will get slapped if the tech director finds out. And he will 

2 hours ago, racinfarmer said:

I think you'd have a challenging time getting a supplier to show up with a truck for the weekend.

Aside from the full mod sleds (Pro Open and Sport Open), I don't think anyone would mix more then 100 octane, so you are mixing about 50/50 with 91, you'll have a bunch of people running 91, and your lower classes will run 91.

I could be wrong though, usually am.

Not sure how the sno-x sleds operate, but don't they all run 110 or whatever it is they run?  One supplier and captive racers makes it easier to have a fuel supplier on site.

I don't really know how modern XC sleds would really operate to any benefit using more than 100 octane.  Probably the reason most just run 91/93.

All sx sleds are pretty much engineered to run optimally now at 105.  Sonoco Surge is the preferred fuel of choice.  Running less than 100LL is done only if you want to rebuild your engine frequently.

1 hour ago, Not greg b said:

Sx has a fuel requirement and they will get slapped if the tech director finds out. And he will 

He's a fucking Nazi anyway.

I'd better start looking into a 55 pretty soon.  Not sure I trust using what's left in last seasons barrel to start the season.  Usually, I like to get 3/4 of the way through the season before a rebuild...or, just sell my sled off to some half wit in Wisconsin and let him have an unlucky riding buddy rope it out of the brush.   

 

 

3 hours ago, Zambroski said:

He's a fucking Nazi anyway.

I'd better start looking into a 55 pretty soon.  Not sure I trust using what's left in last seasons barrel to start the season.  Usually, I like to get 3/4 of the way through the season before a rebuild...or, just sell my sled off to some half wit in Wisconsin and let him have an unlucky riding buddy rope it out of the brush.   

 

 

at a certain point added octane on a stock FI XC sled is just added octane.  compression, timing, a/f and the map requires adjustment for big gains.  as we know SX mills and consumer mills are quite different.

fuel sampling seems to be very common at the tech trailer.  idk if he's willing to discuss it here though.

fuckin' cheap shit Amsoil loosened and removed the crank bearing pin... but it looked like brand new in the bottom of the case.  

7 hours ago, Not greg b said:

They need to work out a deal with fuel distributor to bring a truck down and you can’t use your own on race day. Where most of these races are it’s probably the same supplier 

or... before stock class racing begins you come to the tech trailer to pick up a random stock ECU for your brand and turn it back in at the end of the weekend.

idk how scrutinizing COR XC tech goes but I've seen the SX tech guys live in action and they run a tight ship and give no quarter on violations.  DQ's rarely get challenged to my knowledge.

34 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

at a certain point added octane on a stock FI XC sled is just added octane.  compression, timing, a/f and the map requires adjustment for big gains.  as we know SX mills and consumer mills are quite different.

fuel sampling seems to be very common at the tech trailer.  idk if he's willing to discuss it here though.

fuckin' cheap shit Amsoil loosened and removed the crank bearing pin... but it looked like brand new in the bottom of the case.  

I should have asked more because of "new parts".  Damn it!

1 minute ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

or... before stock class racing begins you come to the tech trailer to pick up a random stock ECU for your brand and turn it back in at the end of the weekend.

idk how scrutinizing COR XC tech goes but I've seen the SX tech guys live in action and they run a tight ship and give no quarter on violations.  DQ's rarely get challenged to my knowledge.

XC has always run a much looser ship.  Small one-off tech advantages don't add up to as much advantage on those courses.  I'd bet most "cheating" results in poorer performance.

3 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

I should have asked more because of "new parts".  Damn it!

XC has always run a much looser ship.  Small one-off tech advantages don't add up to as much advantage on those courses.  I'd bet most "cheating" results in poorer performance.

now there's spare parts... 

I'd assume on the lake with long straights a mph or two can give a distinct advantage.  On terrain, probably less so.  sounds to me as a few savvy folks exploited a loophole... so it's technically not cheating... ? 

will give it a listen today as I'm getting more jazzed up for winter.

4 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

now there's spare parts... 

I'd assume on the lake with long straights a mph or two can give a distinct advantage.  On terrain, probably less so.  sounds to me as a few savvy folks exploited a loophole... so it's technically not cheating... ? 

will give it a listen today as I'm getting more jazzed up for winter.

It's not a "loophole" of it's not specifically mentioned in the rule book.  Racing is racing.  A team should be able to engineer any advantage they see fit...so long as it doesn't violate the rules.  If it's a problem...rules get revised yearly.  Revising them mid season is the "Tucker rule" on idiot steroids.

What ... a constructive discussion on FS? in the GDGDF forum? wow..

So I'll start by saying being on the tech side of things after being on the tuner side of things has given me alot to think about and dissect. The thought of "if you run too much octane its just wasted when the engine isn't made for that" really goes out the window anymore with FI and digital ignition.

On the tech side - we test for specific gravity , ceric nitrade reactions , reagent D, and Die electric constraints.

The biggest thing we are looking for is oxidizers - Die electric, ceric nitrade and then reagent d all test for this , reagent d is testing for Dioxane , and if you are stupid enough to run that I'll hit you in the face with a tach hammer. An oxidizer is something like ethanol , or other oxygenated fuels that will absorb oxygen during the injector spray and results in better oxygenation before igntion

Specific gravity is an easy test to see if you are running the correct fuel - every fuel has a spec sheet with the specific gravity, its not thrown off by oil however it is thrown off by temperature , 90% of the time the sleds come into tech , we pull fuel and its over 60 degrees so we have to account for that but there's handy charts that will outline how to account for that. Theres no way to fooling or spoofing specific gravity unless you can change the temp in the middle of the test.

Fwiw , the last 4 sleds I've owned I've either ran vp110 or c11 with noticeable gains as tested with Aim data logging. the c11 runs the same stoich value as stock , its 105 motor octane and allows the engine/ecu to run full timing advance. back in the carb and knob days you would never play with octane like that , but FI and digital igntion advance is something else. We did see with the vp110 that it was richer (different stoich value) and it did not start as easily as the c11.

Also the minimum build for sx and xc is more than 125. Thats why you see race teams already selling 2025s, the oems give the race teams xxx amount of dollars and xx amount of sleds, and the race teams sell the sleds to offset operating costs (rider salary, transport, lodging costs etc) and the oems have build the correct number of sleds and have less financially into racing - Textron however doesn't want to play the game in their infinite wizdom.

43 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

It's not a "loophole" of it's not specifically mentioned in the rule book.  Racing is racing.  A team should be able to engineer any advantage they see fit...so long as it doesn't violate the rules.  If it's a problem...rules get revised yearly.  Revising them mid season is the "Tucker rule" on idiot steroids.

true... 

 

that looks other teams give when they smell alternative fuels

3 hours ago, fortune46x said:

What ... a constructive discussion on FS? in the GDGDF forum? wow..

So I'll start by saying being on the tech side of things after being on the tuner side of things has given me alot to think about and dissect. The thought of "if you run too much octane its just wasted when the engine isn't made for that" really goes out the window anymore with FI and digital ignition.

On the tech side - we test for specific gravity , ceric nitrade reactions , reagent D, and Die electric constraints.

The biggest thing we are looking for is oxidizers - Die electric, ceric nitrade and then reagent d all test for this , reagent d is testing for Dioxane , and if you are stupid enough to run that I'll hit you in the face with a tach hammer. An oxidizer is something like ethanol , or other oxygenated fuels that will absorb oxygen during the injector spray and results in better oxygenation before igntion

Specific gravity is an easy test to see if you are running the correct fuel - every fuel has a spec sheet with the specific gravity, its not thrown off by oil however it is thrown off by temperature , 90% of the time the sleds come into tech , we pull fuel and its over 60 degrees so we have to account for that but there's handy charts that will outline how to account for that. Theres no way to fooling or spoofing specific gravity unless you can change the temp in the middle of the test.

Fwiw , the last 4 sleds I've owned I've either ran vp110 or c11 with noticeable gains as tested with Aim data logging. the c11 runs the same stoich value as stock , its 105 motor octane and allows the engine/ecu to run full timing advance. back in the carb and knob days you would never play with octane like that , but FI and digital igntion advance is something else. We did see with the vp110 that it was richer (different stoich value) and it did not start as easily as the c11.

Also the minimum build for sx and xc is more than 125. Thats why you see race teams already selling 2025s, the oems give the race teams xxx amount of dollars and xx amount of sleds, and the race teams sell the sleds to offset operating costs (rider salary, transport, lodging costs etc) and the oems have build the correct number of sleds and have less financially into racing - Textron however doesn't want to play the game in their infinite wizdom.

Great info

Lot more to the fuels than just octane 

5 hours ago, fortune46x said:

What ... a constructive discussion on FS? in the GDGDF forum? wow..

So I'll start by saying being on the tech side of things after being on the tuner side of things has given me alot to think about and dissect. The thought of "if you run too much octane its just wasted when the engine isn't made for that" really goes out the window anymore with FI and digital ignition.

On the tech side - we test for specific gravity , ceric nitrade reactions , reagent D, and Die electric constraints.

The biggest thing we are looking for is oxidizers - Die electric, ceric nitrade and then reagent d all test for this , reagent d is testing for Dioxane , and if you are stupid enough to run that I'll hit you in the face with a tach hammer. An oxidizer is something like ethanol , or other oxygenated fuels that will absorb oxygen during the injector spray and results in better oxygenation before igntion

Specific gravity is an easy test to see if you are running the correct fuel - every fuel has a spec sheet with the specific gravity, its not thrown off by oil however it is thrown off by temperature , 90% of the time the sleds come into tech , we pull fuel and its over 60 degrees so we have to account for that but there's handy charts that will outline how to account for that. Theres no way to fooling or spoofing specific gravity unless you can change the temp in the middle of the test.

Fwiw , the last 4 sleds I've owned I've either ran vp110 or c11 with noticeable gains as tested with Aim data logging. the c11 runs the same stoich value as stock , its 105 motor octane and allows the engine/ecu to run full timing advance. back in the carb and knob days you would never play with octane like that , but FI and digital igntion advance is something else. We did see with the vp110 that it was richer (different stoich value) and it did not start as easily as the c11.

Also the minimum build for sx and xc is more than 125. Thats why you see race teams already selling 2025s, the oems give the race teams xxx amount of dollars and xx amount of sleds, and the race teams sell the sleds to offset operating costs (rider salary, transport, lodging costs etc) and the oems have build the correct number of sleds and have less financially into racing - Textron however doesn't want to play the game in their infinite wizdom.

 

you just earned a Capri Sun kid!!! 

now, what about the orange rule, snow flaps and bringing back the modz? 

 

1 hour ago, Premium said:

Great info

next up... trail converting SX sleds

@Zambroski

26 minutes ago, mnstang said:

Lot more to the fuels than just octane 

110% and Fuel injection and digital 3d ignition amplifies that over the old single degree increase and jets. Being able to set perameters based of a multitude of sensors for pipe temp, fresh air temp, knock sensors really allows things to run much cleaner and account for so many inconsistencies in fuel by pulling timing or adding timing if you have some happy fuel.

Then you get into Stoich, RVP , MOR , oxy% and you can really go down a rabbit hole.

2 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

 

you just earned a Capri Sun kid!!! 

now, what about the orange rule, snow flaps and bringing back the modz? 

 

Sadly you'll never see mods at snocross ever again. the OEM's do not want the headache it would take to make it work on their level, and the aftermarket companies are not interested in it since its such a limited market. the "mods" at the Xc level are far less exotic than what most think, the GD-SOO i500 has the most exotic mods out there.

38 minutes ago, fortune46x said:

Sadly you'll never see mods at snocross ever again. the OEM's do not want the headache it would take to make it work on their level, and the aftermarket companies are not interested in it since its such a limited market. the "mods" at the Xc level are far less exotic than what most think, the GD-SOO i500 has the most exotic mods out there.

 

 

 

that's why the GD Soo is the greatest snowmobile race known to man !!!!

what kind of polar bear piss do they use at the Iron Dog, that's when the natives aren't stealing it?  

 

Edited September 19, 20241 yr by Crnr2Crnr