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630 *mass shootings this year


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4 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

well, one of the last places i would go to for accurate, non biased news about guns, in the US, is the BBC...or anyone in britain for that matter.

What parts of the link did you find to be inaccurate? What reliable news sources do you use for these matters?

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23 minutes ago, HSR said:

What parts of the link did you find to be inaccurate? What reliable news sources do you use for these matters?

these days, reliable and news are not 2 words that go together. so if i'm looking for somewhat accurate facts on a topic like this, i'll grab them from the FBI database or other similar sources. 
for real world data, i go by what i see around me every day. 3 shootings in my city this week alone, so i have plenty of available real world examples unfortunately

 

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1 hour ago, Tommcat said:

these days, reliable and news are not 2 words that go together. so if i'm looking for somewhat accurate facts on a topic like this, i'll grab them from the FBI database or other similar sources. 
for real world data, i go by what i see around me every day. 3 shootings in my city this week alone, so i have plenty of available real world examples unfortunately

 

Don't you think it would be better to address the issue now before it gets much worse and your Government shoves something you don't want down your throats like in the link Tomas just posted.

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13 minutes ago, HSR said:

Don't you think it would be better to address the issue now before it gets much worse and your Government shoves something you don't want down your throats like in the link Tomas just posted.

Honestly I struggle with what their options are.

The extremely large majority of anti gun people don't even know most of the laws that are currently already on the books let alone understand them. That is all the way from the low information public to the lawmakers, to the political representatives and ending at the POTUS. They are clueless when it comes to guns. How they function, the capabilities and how they are currently regulated.

So how does one fight an information war where the highest elected seats in the land are lying against you? 

Banning firearms of any kind really doesn't solve the root problem which is violence of any kind. Violence is violence, no matter the tool used. Non partisan studies have proven this. 

Sure you could do licensing (which I agree with) and background checks (which already happens at pretty much anyplace one can legally purchase a firearm aside from off the books private sales), safe storage laws, ect, but these only effect the law abiding public. These while good measures, they don't target the right people. We need to go after criminals.

We need bail reform and sentences that actually stick and are made to last. Not out on release to commit again in a day or a week. We need to actually punish with a high level of consistency.

We need to seperate gang, inner city ect. crime stats from actual regular crime stats so get can get a better picture of where resources need to be spent. 

Spending billions of dollars going after AR-15'S or any other firearm that is arbitrarily deemed an "assault weapon" by people who don't understand them or don't personally care for them and want to force their opinion on others won't solve the problem either. All that does is entrench both sides into their beliefs.

Real, effective change can only being to have meaning and take shape when there is true and honest facts and discussion. But that will never happen while guns are used as a vote buying tool for the uninformed and scared voter.

 

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1 hour ago, HSR said:

Don't you think it would be better to address the issue now before it gets much worse and your Government shoves something you don't want down your throats like in the link Tomas just posted.

well the government already does that on a regular basis, law abiding gun owner like myself are the ONLY ones that get punished for what others do.

but, yes, i'd love to address the issue. i think you'd find most gun owners, if they felt they could be honest with you, would happily admit that there is a problem, and would love to discuss solutions. many of them are easy to do and seem like no brainers too.

the problem is that the other side cant have an intelligent, fact based discussion without bringing emotions into it, and it always turns into a name calling shit show.

i've tried having these discussions, but it always devolves into people saying i just want children to die, or something along those lines, and at that point you just have to accept that these people are not capable of having the debate that we need.

Edited by Tommcat
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5 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

i've tried having these discussion, but it always devolves into people saying i just want children to die, or something along those lines, and at that point you just have to accept that these people are not capable of having the debate that we need.

I have to agree but I feel both sides are guilty of the whataboutisms such as in this thread when the points being made are about how knives are just as deadly (ridiculous) or killer dump trucks and killer cars. Neither side seems to want to find a solution from my point of view and just get's ridiculous like you said in bold.

I said change was needed and got accused of saying you guys should do the exact opposite of what you're doing now, just childish.

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1 minute ago, HSR said:

I have to agree but I feel both sides are guilty of the whataboutisms such as in this thread when the points being made are about how knives are just as deadly (ridiculous) or killer dump trucks and killer cars. Neither side seems to want to find a solution from my point of view and just get's ridiculous like you said in bold.

well i'll give you facts, from the example i listed earlier from my city. we have plenty of shootings, stabbings and murders a year, so i can find plenty of example if these dont work

but the 3 shootings from this week, were each with a stolen handgun, one with defaced serial numbers, what our media likes to call a "ghost gun" now. now AR's involved.

all 3 shooters and their accomplices are repeat offenders with 2 of them being out on parole, right now, for violent gun crimes.

you tell me where any additional laws would have helped here, if we arent even going to enforce the pile of felonies they are already guilty of.

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Just now, Tommcat said:

well i'll give you facts, from the example i listed earlier from my city. we have plenty of shootings, stabbings and murders a year, so i can find plenty of example if these dont work

but the 3 shootings from this week, were each with a stolen handgun, one with defaced serial numbers, what our media likes to call a "ghost gun" now. now AR's involved.

all 3 shooters and their accomplices are repeat offenders with 2 of them being out on parole, right now, for violent gun crimes.

you tell me where any additional laws would have helped here, if we arent even going to enforce the pile of felonies they are already guilty of.

Did you read my idea for new gun laws?

Violent gun crime would have had them away for an auto 20+ years. Minimum. New laws that have even possession of an illegal gun 10 years and do a gestapo style enforcement in high crime areas. Illegal guns = major jail time. 

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2 minutes ago, HSR said:

Did you read my idea for new gun laws?

Violent gun crime would have had them away for an auto 20+ years. Minimum. New laws that have even possession of an illegal gun 10 years and do a gestapo style enforcement in high crime areas. Illegal guns = major jail time. 

It may benefit you and I know it would benefit the rest of us if would read more than the first 3 or 4 sentences of a post

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6 minutes ago, HSR said:

Did you read my idea for new gun laws?

Violent gun crime would have had them away for an auto 20+ years. Minimum. New laws that have even possession of an illegal gun 10 years and do a gestapo style enforcement in high crime areas. Illegal guns = major jail time. 

i will be honest, i did not see it.

 

but, we already have high, "mandatory" sentences for these crimes, but our super liberal justice system CHOOSES not to enforce them on these people.

here, when these guys get arrested for drugs and guns, our DA drops the gun charges in return for a guilty plea on the drug charges, in doing so, they accomplish several things. they artificially inflate their conviction rate on drug crime, and when you dont charge people with gun crime at all, the states gun crime rate goes down on paper, making our gun laws appear to be effective for the uninformed and dishonest.

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18 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

i will be honest, i did not see it.

 

but, we already have high, "mandatory" sentences for these crimes, but our super liberal justice system CHOOSES not to enforce them on these people.

here, when these guys get arrested for drugs and guns, our DA drops the gun charges in return for a guilty plea on the drug charges, in doing so, they accomplish several things. they artificially inflate their conviction rate on drug crime, and when you dont charge people with gun crime at all, the states gun crime rate goes down on paper, making our gun laws appear to be effective for the uninformed and dishonest.

With a justice system like that the LEO have no incentive to do a proper job. If they knew arresting a pos with an illegal gun meant they never saw the fucker again they might work a little harder. That would be hard to take after awhile from LEO's perspective. Then they become a reactionary force instead of a proactive one. 

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6 minutes ago, HSR said:

With a justice system like that the LEO have no incentive to do a proper job. If they knew arresting a pos with an illegal gun meant they never saw the fucker again they might work a little harder. That would be hard to take after awhile from LEO's perspective. Then they become a reactionary force instead of a proactive one. 

they arrest them as often as possible, but i frustrates them for sure. i have friends on the force and the stories are unreal.

it's bad enough that we have a gang task force here, staffed by FBI and state police. and they'll tell you flat out, people like me and their AR, are the very least of their concerns.

we average about 25 murders a year here, none with a rifle of any kind, nevermind a scary weapon of war.

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1 hour ago, Tomas. said:

Sure you could do licensing (which I agree with) and background checks (which already happens at pretty much anyplace one can legally purchase a firearm aside from off the books private sales), safe storage laws, ect, but these only effect the law abiding public. These while good measures, they don't target the right people. We need to go after criminals.

By and large almost all of these mass shooters were just that until,,,,,,,,,

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1 minute ago, Tommcat said:

they arrest them as often as possible, but i frustrates them for sure. i have friends on the force and the stories are unreal.

it's bad enough that we have a gang task force here, staffed by FBI and state police. and they'll tell you flat out, people like me and their AR, are the very least of their concerns.

we average about 25 murders a year here, none with a rifle of any kind, nevermind a scary weapon of war.

While this discussion is great and friendly for once we aren't touching the OP which is more concerned with the mass shooting issue in the US which is predominantly law abiding citizens, not career criminals.

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Just now, HSR said:

By and large almost all of these mass shooters were just that until,,,,,,,,,

that depends on your definition of "mass shooting"

what qualifies as one was changed so that the could include all of the gang shootings in the statistics, while never actually mentioning them.

if you are talking about the trued number of shooting involving more than 4 people, they are mostly gang violence and dont use rifles. which could be solved by actually enforcing existing laws, as i mentioned.

if you are talking about the school shooting wackjobs, then yes, they do use some AR's, although the media likes to lie and use the term "AR style" now, so they can continue to push the agenda even when facts dont support it.

my opinion, and what i personally see around here, is that the school shooting type, the mentally disturbed subway type, and just general wackjobs, all started about a generation after we shut down all of the mental institutions. when there were multiple state mental hospitals, these people didnt have access to guns or schools, now they roam around in public.

the guns haver always been there, ARs have been available to the public since the mid 20th century, so what changed? the guns didnt, so where to you look next? the people.

what exactly can be done about the people problem, i will be the first to admit i dont fully know. but the left needs to at least get to the point where they can admit that people could be the problem or we'll never move forward 

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8 minutes ago, HSR said:

While this discussion is great and friendly for once we aren't touching the OP which is more concerned with the mass shooting issue in the US which is predominantly law abiding citizens, not career criminals.

well, that part is only partially true. many of them are people that while they did technically pass a background check and "legally" purchase the weapon, they should not have been allowed to but did because the FBI background checks dont work as currently set up.

i will be the first to admit that not everyone should have a gun and there absolutely should be a list of prohibited people. 

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1 minute ago, Tommcat said:

that depends on your definition of "mass shooting"

what qualifies as one was changed so that the could include all of the gang shootings in the statistics, while never actually mentioning them.

if you are talking about the trued number of shooting involving more than 4 people, they are mostly gang violence and dont use rifles. which could be solved by actually enforcing existing laws, as i mentioned.

if you are talking about the school shooting wackjobs, then yes, they do use some AR's, although the media likes to lie and use the term "AR style" now, so they can continue to push the agenda even when facts dont support it.

my opinion, and what i personally see around here, is that the school shooting type, the mentally disturbed subway type, and just general wackjobs, all started about a generation after we shut down all of the mental institutions. when there were multiple state mental hospitals, these people didnt have access to guns or schools, now they roam around in public.

the guns haver always been there, ARs have been available to the public since the mid 20th century, so what changed? the guns didnt, so where to you look next? the people.

what exactly can be done about the people problem, i will be the first to admit i dont fully know. but the left needs to at least get to the point where they can admit that people could be the problem or we'll never move forward 

What has changed is the culture of life in the USA and with that change comes a generation of people with a sense of entitlement. They want everything their way and the attention on them. Trans community is a fine example of this. This sense of entitlement grows in some until they feel they need to "do something".

Now do you honestly think this next generation and the gen. after that are proving they deserve the rights of the second amendment? I don't think they've earned it myself. 

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2 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

well, that part is only partially true. many of them are people that while they did technically pass a background check and "legally" purchase the weapon, they should not have been allowed to but did because the FBI background checks dont work as currently set up.

i will be the first to admit that not everyone should have a gun and there absolutely should be a list of prohibited people. 

That would be the first thing to correct IMHO. :bc:

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Just now, HSR said:

What has changed is the culture of life in the USA and with that change comes a generation of people with a sense of entitlement. They want everything their way and the attention on them. Trans community is a fine example of this. This sense of entitlement grows in some until they feel they need to "do something".

Now do you honestly think this next generation and the gen. after that are proving they deserve the rights of the second amendment? I don't think they've earned it myself. 

i agree to a geat extent, the current generations as a whole are fucktards, but to punish EVERYONE in a generation and restrict their constitutional rights because of what others do, is wrong.

my nephew is learning to be a "gun guy", and certainly deserves every right to do it the same way as i did and every generation before me.

i think the fact that we dont bring kids up around guns anymore is ONE of the big problems. i was shooting when i was little, and learned a respect for guns early. now we have generations that would literally shit themselves if they knew i was in the room with them with a concealed carry piece. and that lack of familiarity with guns causes fear of them, which causes irrational responses to them

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Most of these mass shooters have displayed warning signs that were ignored by family and friends for years. Yes, some do slip passed unnoticed or suffer a mental break that blindsides everyone.

The answer still isn't to take away the right from the vast majority that still deserves or has earned it. 

Per the numbers, this "mass shootings" pose a very small risk to the everyday person. 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

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5 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

i agree to a geat extent, the current generations as a whole are fucktards, but to punish EVERYONE in a generation and restrict their constitutional rights because of what others do, is wrong.

my nephew is learning to be a "gun guy", and certainly deserves every right to do it the same way as i did and every generation before me.

i think the fact that we dont bring kids up around guns anymore is ONE of the big problems. i was shooting when i was little, and learned a respect for guns early. now we have generations that would literally shit themselves if they knew i was in the room with them with a concealed carry piece. and that lack of familiarity with guns causes fear of them, which causes irrational responses to them

I know it's wrong to punish the masses because of the actions of a few, but it MAY escalate to that point. Maybe have to get training before you can purchase your first gun or possess one as your own :dunno: The kid in Buffalo seemed to know his way around a weapon, and was nice to see life in prison for him and no "mental issues" used as an excuse. Just a racist that went to kill him some blacks.

4 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

i agree more than you can imagine, but look who we're talking about

Yeah, not much hope for change there.

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