2024 Sleds... what's coming

[ZR6000RR]

RXC's are sold out! Same for the T-Cat!

Edited March 7, 2023 by ZR6000RR

[Crnr2Crnr]

34 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

You left your name on the picture?

[p51mstg]

11 minutes ago, jdsky said:

Poo also has weights posted in their specs.  For the SP 650 137 it's 499lbs.  For some fucking reason cat is not as proud of their sled weights as some of their brand fans are other than "it sure feels light and playful."  Of course it does when directly compared to a fucking procross.  That's called a riding position that is completely different and just like doo and poo have had for years and years now.

Will they sell every one they can produce?  Of course they will, that's why they priced them so high.  Exactly how many will they sell for 2024?  Nobody will ever know until someone is able to post market share to see if cat has made any progress.

My guess?  They won't gain any significant share for 24 because only fucking dumstads will pay more for all the old chassis' they are still pushing and a shit ton of enthusiasts of the sport have no interest in buying a 600 and are going to be shocked when the poo 650 spanks it across a lake. 

   

 

 

 

I don't know why I couldn't find those, sorry for being dense.  If I were a newby, these web sites would be a complete waste of time.  Because I know what I'm looking for, these web sites are all a waste of time.  Very confusing (and software with a web interface is my day job).

To be honest, Cat isn't going to gain market share for a couple more years, and it has nothing to do with their web site, their prices or their weight.  They're only making so many.  If they could make an unlimited number, then maybe they would.  If they could make more, they'd also expand their lineup and fill a few more gaps.  It takes money to make money, and Cat isn't ready yet to push for greater market share.

When I first looked at the 2024 Polaris lineup last night, I didn't see more than 2-3 650 models and no S4 engine.  It took me a while to figure out how to search for those.  But, for a few minutes I was ready to call my stock broker this morning to sell my Polaris stock, because I got really nervous when it looked like Polaris had cut way back on the number of models offered.

Overall, from what I can tell Ski Doo and Polaris have a good lineup and I like what I've seen.  Except for water injection, this was just an incremental year for them both (I'm still of the opinion that water injection is not going to be anything more than a novelty.  I'm sure it will work fine.  I doubt anyone else will try it).  I also believe they have too many models.  Their profitability per unit sold is bound to be affected by their pursuit of market share.  

Maybe Cat's prices will make a difference, not sure.  I bought a Riot, in part, because they were cheaper at the time.  Are there people who will be swayed by price?  Maybe.  However, I think there are other factors that are much more influential: 

Brand loyalty,

Production capacity and model availability,

General confusion about what's available and an inability to compare,

Being influenced by a dealer about which one they should buy. 

I'll bet the only time the price will enter the equation is when someone else brings it up - a dealer, a friend, or a keyboard expert.  If we all shut up about price, I'll bet a the number of people who bought a competitor's model based on price would be extremely small.

[stinkipinki]

13 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

You left your name on the picture?

Thats not me.

[jdsky]

9 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I don't know why I couldn't find those, sorry for being dense.  If I were a newby, these web sites would be a complete waste of time.  Because I know what I'm looking for, these web sites are all a waste of time.  Very confusing (and software with a web interface is my day job).

To be honest, Cat isn't going to gain market share for a couple more years, and it has nothing to do with their web site, their prices or their weight.  They're only making so many.  If they could make an unlimited number, then maybe they would.  If they could make more, they'd also expand their lineup and fill a few more gaps.  It takes money to make money, and Cat isn't ready yet to push for greater market share.

When I first looked at the 2024 Polaris lineup last night, I didn't see more than 2-3 650 models and no S4 engine.  It took me a while to figure out how to search for those.  But, for a few minutes I was ready to call my stock broker this morning to sell my Polaris stock, because I got really nervous when it looked like Polaris had cut way back on the number of models offered.

Overall, from what I can tell Ski Doo and Polaris have a good lineup and I like what I've seen.  Except for water injection, this was just an incremental year for them both (I'm still of the opinion that water injection is not going to be anything more than a novelty.  I'm sure it will work fine.  I doubt anyone else will try it).  I also believe they have too many models.  Their profitability per unit sold is bound to be affected by their pursuit of market share.  

Maybe Cat's prices will make a difference, not sure.  I bought a Riot, in part, because they were cheaper at the time.  Are there people who will be swayed by price?  Maybe.  However, I think there are other factors that are much more influential: 

Brand loyalty,

Production capacity and model availability,

General confusion about what's available and an inability to compare,

Being influenced by a dealer about which one they should buy. 

I'll bet the only time the price will enter the equation is when someone else brings it up - a dealer, a friend, or a keyboard expert.  If we all shut up about price, I'll bet a the number of people who bought a competitor's model based on price would be extremely small.

Completely agree that the websites are not easy to navigate or find specific info on.  Regarding sales every manufacturer is having constraint issues and problems producing in the volumes they would like to in order to meet demand.  Only the leadership at textron/cat actually knows if they are having more difficulty with their supply chain than their competition.

The bottom line is there can be only two reasons for not selling more than their competitors.  They really just suck at supply chain and manufacturing or there is overall less demand for their products vs the competition.   There is no other reason for not gaining share if the product is truly superior in every meaningful way to consumers. 

There is also zero reason to defend a brand when it is sucking in the market unless they pay you to do so.  Otherwise it's just being a blind fan which I am not insinuating that you in particular are one of those.  I spend my money on shit I think is the best option for me.  I have owned my share of cats in the past and was a fan.  When they stopped making what I considered to be the best product, or even a decent product compared to the competition I had zero fucking reasons to keep spending my money on their shit.  If at some point if they can prove they are producing a better product I will consider it but I'm not buying just so I can dust off my 1990's riding gear....

[Crnr2Crnr]

28 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

Thats not me.

so you didn't order one and posted some other person's order?  

 

[Deephaven]

42 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

You left your name on the picture?

He is posting every sale he finds.  Sad that there are so few.  Market share gain, rofl...

[stinkipinki]

1 minute ago, Deephaven said:

He is posting every sale he finds.  Sad that there are so few.  Market share gain, rofl...

Ahhh poor little guy needs a suckie.

[Ziemann]

WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT WILL HELP CAT GAIN MARKETSHARE?

Am I missing the point?

I've had 29 new Cats including several Procross chassis sleds, and still have some in the garage. Cat had my attention....briefly. What would compel a Polaris or Ski-Doo customer to switch brands to a Catalyst? From what I can see, it offers nothing that would compel me or anyone else to change brands. It is unproven, comes from a company with a terrible track record of new model releases, and does nothing but replicate what the other manufacturers have already perfected. Catalyst is nothing more than a "me too" model with nothing revolutionary or game changing. How do they expect to increase market share with a "me too" model that is even higher priced? I don't get it, and must be missing the point. I want to believe, but when I look at it OBJECTIVELY, it makes little to no sense..... Maybe if they came in at a really low price they would have my attention, but highest price is comical. 

My new VR-1 has 3000 miles on it. My dealer addressed the initial quality issues that my sled had in the first 200 miles. And the last 2800 miles have been pain-free. I am satisfied with my purchase, and have no regrets. I spent over 30 years on Cats, and I can't help but still feel a little brand loyal (but not blindly brand loyal like some of you). But when you objectively look at it, what does the Catalyst offer to anyone OTHER THAN a die hard Cat customer? *shrug*

It's a bright shiny object that is nothing more than a "me too" offering.....

[Palu49]

1 hour ago, stinkipinki said:

Cat have never tried to 'gain market share' even though in the mid 2000s they had like 35% with the Firecats. They just strive to make the best sled. You can make fun of the ProCross all day but for trail riding its a great chassis, and it won 50-60% of flatland racing events for like 10 years in usxc and isoc.

Now the tables have turned, the new progressive steering system and friction less belt drive make the competition look old and outdated.

Cat buried themselves in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s by being strictly the performance snowmobile guys. That is in part what made arctic cat arctic cat but it also kept them small and behind the eight ball as a whole. Polaris went out at the same time as cat and take a look at what they’ve been able to do, basically because of getting on the 4 wheeler train very early and diversifying over the years. Cat had a few half ass attempts at jet skis and 4 wheelers but painted themselves into a corner as being the little company from Minnesota that builds fast sleds. If they could get a chunk of the market share back they’d go after it as hard as they could but they put themselves into a financial situation to not be able to do that right now. Hopefully textron watched and saw some of what Fiat did with Dodge/Ram trucks and can do that with Cat but I have my doubts.

 

Also the Firecat was the beginning of the downward spiral for cat.

[stinkipinki]

17 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

Cat buried themselves in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s by being strictly the performance snowmobile guys. That is in part what made arctic cat arctic cat but it also kept them small and behind the eight ball as a whole. Polaris went out at the same time as cat and take a look at what they’ve been able to do, basically because of getting on the 4 wheeler train very early and diversifying over the years. Cat had a few half ass attempts at jet skis and 4 wheelers but painted themselves into a corner as being the little company from Minnesota that builds fast sleds. If they could get a chunk of the market share back they’d go after it as hard as they could but they put themselves into a financial situation to not be able to do that right now. Hopefully textron watched and saw some of what Fiat did with Dodge/Ram trucks and can do that with Cat but I have my doubts.

 

Also the Firecat was the beginning of the downward spiral for cat.

I agree Cat was never really going all out in other markets. They pushed advancement many times in the sledding industry, AWS suspensions made all other sleds look outdated for years. I dont think they cared much to get massive, just post profit doing what they love. The Twinspar was the first dip for Cat, not the Firecats.

As a whole they won't challenge BRP, Yamaha or Polaris. But for just sledding, which is really all they care about, I can see them getting to 25% or so again, which would open those doors again.

Edited March 7, 2023 by stinkipinki

[jdsky]

So, they have the bestest sleds out there for decades but can't lead the market because they are just too small or too stupid to make money in other product categories?  Absofuckinglutely ridiculous.  They have zero excuse of being small when owned by a company that has all the necessary resources and should be able to overcome outside forces like supply chain and manufacturing if that is all that is needed to propel them to the top.  Textron has owned them for 6 years now. 

The only excuse at this point is that cat was in such a fucking bad place product wise that it is now going to take decades to overcome all of the issues and that's only if textron has the patience for it.  The fans excuses are just endless and completely detached from the reality of the situation.  Cat, like many companies that at one time had innovation engrained in their DNA, thought their fans would never leave no matter how inferior and irrelevant their products became.  

There is zero reason the catalyst, or something extremely close to it, did not exist at a minimum 5 or more years ago and it really should have existed at a time when a suzuki engine was powering it.  Cat just did not want to bend and pay a royalty like poo did and poo is so much further ahead now that they did.  That had zero to do with how many ATVs and SxS's poo sells every year. 

[ZR6000RR]

1 minute ago, jdsky said:

So, they have the bestest sleds out there for decades but can't lead the market because they are just too small or too stupid to make money in other product categories?  Absofuckinglutely ridiculous.  They have zero excuse of being small when owned by a company that has all the necessary resources and should be able to overcome outside forces like supply chain and manufacturing if that is all that is needed to propel them to the top.  Textron has owned them for 6 years now. 

The only excuse at this point is that cat was in such a fucking bad place product wise that it is now going to take decades to overcome all of the issues and that's only if textron has the patience for it.  The fans excuses are just endless and completely detached from the reality of the situation.  Cat, like many companies that at one time had innovation engrained in their DNA, thought their fans would never leave no matter how inferior and irrelevant their products became.  

There is zero reason the catalyst, or something extremely close to it, did not exist at a minimum 5 or more years ago and it really should have existed at a time when a suzuki engine was powering it.  Cat just did not want to bend and pay a royalty like poo did and poo is so much further ahead now that they did.  That had zero to do with how many ATVs and SxS's poo sells every year. 

You know Jack Shit!

[Deephaven]

48 minutes ago, Ziemann said:

WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT WILL HELP CAT GAIN MARKETSHARE?

Am I missing the point?

Nothing.  Whomever thinks differently should look up Porter and understand they aren't doing what they need to grow.

48 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

Cat buried themselves in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s by being strictly the performance snowmobile guys. That is in part what made arctic cat arctic cat but it also kept them small and behind the eight ball as a whole. 

That was their niche.  Now they don't have that and ignoring what else you need to do to become a market challenger.  No hope unless they do something very different.  Being the most unproven and highest priced is the dumbest of all market positions.  No way that will work.

[Deephaven]

2 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

You know Jack Shit!

Lol, go shovel some more gravel.  Obviously I need to spoonfeed and translate my response above for a lower common denominator of intelligence.

Read this chart.  Will tell you exactly where AC is.  Lookup Market Challenger and what needs to be done to grow.  Porter is absolutely right.  

 

[stinkipinki]

14 minutes ago, jdsky said:

So, they have the bestest sleds out there for decades but can't lead the market because they are just too small or too stupid to make money in other product categories?  Absofuckinglutely ridiculous.  They have zero excuse of being small when owned by a company that has all the necessary resources and should be able to overcome outside forces like supply chain and manufacturing if that is all that is needed to propel them to the top.  Textron has owned them for 6 years now. 

The only excuse at this point is that cat was in such a fucking bad place product wise that it is now going to take decades to overcome all of the issues and that's only if textron has the patience for it.  

SXS's didnt really get popular until the mid 2000s, Yamaha didnt even release the Rhino until like 03 and even then it was a shocker to the ATV industry.

Cat will be fine, in a few years, with how good of a job they did with Catalyst they'll be back to having solid market share. 

[jdsky]

1 minute ago, stinkipinki said:

SXS's didnt really get popular until the mid 2000s, Yamaha didnt even release the Rhino until like 03 and even then it was a shocker to the ATV industry.

Cat will be fine, in a few years, with how good of a job they did with Catalyst they'll be back to having solid market share. 

The first ATV I bought new was a 97' poolaris.  The cat ATV lineup was a joke in comparison and poo was able to dominate in sales.  Poo applied the same savvy to SxS's and again, dominated brands like Honda and Yamaha that were fucking huge in comparison and had nearly unlimited resources compared to poo at that time.

When I bought a pair of new SxS's in 2013 I looked at everything as I always do when spending that kind of cash.  For what we needed poo was the only brand that offered it all specific to engine and features.  We still have the fucking things and they have been reliable and contrary to popular internet forum beliefs neither have started on fire.

[Deephaven]

17 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

Cat will be fine, in a few years, with how good of a job they did with Catalyst they'll be back to having solid market share. 

You aren't very good at reading are you?  "Good of a job" is pointless.  You need a differentiator to grow and being green is not good enough.

 

[p51mstg]

9 minutes ago, jdsky said:

The first ATV I bought new was a 97' poolaris.  The cat ATV lineup was a joke in comparison and poo was able to dominate in sales.  Poo applied the same savvy to SxS's and again, dominated brands like Honda and Yamaha that were fucking huge in comparison and had nearly unlimited resources compared to poo at that time.

When I bought a pair of new SxS's in 2013 I looked at everything as I always do when spending that kind of cash.  For what we needed poo was the only brand that offered it all specific to engine and features.  We still have the fucking things and they have been reliable and contrary to popular internet forum beliefs neither have started on fire.

I like our General and Sportsman a lot, but I haven't seen them try to reproduce.  I have no illusions - they will try - but I haven't seen them actually "do it".  The Ride Command on our General is awesome - we've found all kinds of little unmarked publicly accessible trails, forestry roads and goat paths and that screen has paid for itself.  The 7s is cool, and I was drooling over it at Hay Days this year, but I'm not sure if I'd use it as much on a snowmobile.  Maybe I would, because I do wish I knew where I was half the time.

Back to snowmobiles, I forgot to mention one thing that really impressed me about the Polaris reveal - a guaranteed delivery date.  Polaris read their customers' minds, and that's really good to see.  I also liked that they're getting back to snow check exclusive models and features - giving customers a reason to spend MSRP.  

I really, really like that.  Not only does it signal a return to pre-Covid days, as far as selection, buyer leverage and better choices, but it also showed me that Polaris was tuned in.

[p51mstg]

12 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

You aren't very good at reading are you?  "Good of a job" is pointless.  You need a differentiator to grow and being green is not good enough.

 

I'm seeing a lot of comments that involve being able to read someone else's mind.  That's a lot harder than most people think, as you know.   

Edited March 7, 2023 by p51mstg

[ZR6000RR]

Just now, p51mstg said:

I like our General and Sportsman a lot, but I haven't seen them try to reproduce.  I have no illusions - they will try - but I haven't seen them actually "do it".  The Ride Command on our General is awesome - we've found all kinds of little unmarked publicly accessible trails, forestry roads and goat paths and that screen has paid for itself.  The 7s is cool, and I was drooling over it at Hay Days this year, but I'm not sure if I'd use it as much on a snowmobile.  Maybe I would, because I do wish I knew where I was half the time.

Back to snowmobiles, I forgot to mention one thing that really impressed me about the Polaris reveal - a guaranteed delivery date.  Polaris read their customers' minds, and that's really good to see.  I also liked that they're getting back to snow check exclusive models and features - giving customers a reason to spend MSRP.  

I really, really like that.  Not only does it signal a return to pre-Covid days, as far as selection, buyer leverage and better choices, but it also showed me that Polaris was tuned in.

That is if they follow through with it or come up with some excuse that they had no choice but to push back deliveries due to a plant fire or another HUGE RECALL. Been known to do that. 

[Deephaven]

4 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I'm seeing a lot of comments that involve being able to read someone else's mind.  That's a lot harder than most people think, as you know.   

Not mind reading all the above that state it won't happen is right in the thread.  No differentiation, wrong positioning.  Textron is not helping...

[Crnr2Crnr]

built three comparable sleds this morning set up as basic (no options or accessories) as affordable as possible.

MXZ X-RS 600 137 with competition pkg - $15,699

XCR 650 136 - $16,299

R-XC 600 137 (w/o estart) - $16,099

 

 

[stinkipinki]

Update: Rumors online Cat has sold out of pre-orders

Edited March 7, 2023 by stinkipinki

[ZR6000RR]

1 minute ago, stinkipinki said:

Update: Rumors online Cat has sold out of pre-orders

On Catalyst models, Thunder Cat and several other models.