Catalyst Updates

[Premium]

12 hours ago, p51mstg said:

I pointed out how well the Catalyst handled in this thread back on January 16, the same day I was posting about the seat and a bunch of other things.

"The Catalyst ZR's corner like a friggin slot car.  Trying to get a ski to lift in a corner is possible, but most of the time it's an exercise in frustration.  The three of us trail riders all had the same impression.  It made me look like a much better rider."

Since the official unveiling is only a couple of days away, I also thought it was interesting that, on January 25 (in this thread), I said this:

"By the way, on the thumbnail - sleds in the background, under cover - Cat didn’t tell us what they were and never took the covers off.  We didn’t see everything they have for 2024, and we didn’t see any prototypes they may be testing."

Yep I should've credited you as well. I definitely remember that from your review!

[p51mstg]

Cat web site just updated.  Arctic Insider at 11am central.

[Crnr2Crnr]

couple interesting (to me) tidbits in the spec sheets...

gearing - Lyst ZR's 30/58 - Lyst Riot 27/60 - Lyst M 24/63 but idk how this compares to chaincase #'s

ski stance - Lyst ZR's 41.25"-42.25"w vs ProCross ZR 42"-43" or Lyst Riot 38-40" vs ProCross Riot 41.5-43.5"

front travel - Lyst ZR's 8.2" / Lyst Riot 7.5" vs ProCross ZR & Riot 9"  (Lyst has no rear travel listed but shows 13.5 on the R-XC)  ProCross ZR & Riot 13.5"

 

Riot clutching/gearing in the ZR might be mildly amusing on the low end... 

so, they narrowed up the front end a touch and gave up a bit of travel... wonder why?  

[Crnr2Crnr]

e-start comes on everything but the RXC if you tick the box, why force it on people?

another omission... no 'ice' tracks offered whatsoever, which Polaris & BRP do as not all want studs

sure, studs work better the vast majority of the time, but why not offer one for trail sleds when the competition does and they all use the same track supplier? 

 

 

 

[p51mstg]

1 hour ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

e-start comes on everything but the RXC if you tick the box, why force it on people?

another omission... no 'ice' tracks offered whatsoever, which Polaris & BRP do as not all want studs

sure, studs work better the vast majority of the time, but why not offer one for trail sleds when the competition does and they all use the same track supplier? 

 

 

 

I'm sure tracking each sled down the assembly line isn't easy, but auto manufacturers have been doing it since (decades) before bar codes and WiFi access points.

Making all of these things optional would be the cat's meow - electric start, RCA jack, track, gauge, color, painted tunnel - all the stuff the competitors are giving people a choice on.  I agree on a wider selection of track options, too.  Maybe we're almost there with Cat, but who knows?

I believe at least one M model has the delete for e-start, as well as the RXC.

Edited March 1, 2023 by p51mstg

[ZR6000RR]

14 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I'm sure tracking each sled down the assembly line isn't easy, but auto manufacturers have been doing it since (decades) before bar codes and WiFi access points.

Making all of these things optional would be the cat's meow - electric start, RCA jack, track, gauge, color, painted tunnel - all the stuff the competitors are giving people a choice on.  I agree on a wider selection of track options, too.  Maybe we're almost there with Cat, but who knows?

I believe at least one M model has the delete for e-start, as well as the RXC.

Manufacturing is easier when you put every thing on to start. I used to go for the non electric start, but now, I would never buy without. Love the built in RCA jack. Saves me the time to buy and install. Blue ZR 129 ATAC is what I am doing. Mid height shield, bigger bumper, large rear pack.

[Crnr2Crnr]

9 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I'm sure tracking each sled down the assembly line isn't easy, but auto manufacturers have been doing it since (decades) before bar codes and WiFi access points.

Making all of these things optional would be the cat's meow - electric start, RCA jack, track, gauge, color, painted tunnel - all the stuff the competitors are giving people a choice on.  I agree on a wider selection of track options, too.  Maybe we're almost there with Cat, but who knows?

I believe at least one M model has the delete for e-start, as well as the RXC.

I'm not hung up on colors, gizmos, widgets or gadgets and work in an OEM setting so I understand much of it for production.  

Being that Cat is focusing on weight savings, why not make e-start an option?  Pretty simple really.  I forget how much weight it was but Mnstang removed all the e-start components from his high country and it was a significant amount of lbs.  Polaris models that are quoted with weights don't come with e-start unless it's standard.  Nice marketing trick unless you know about it.

BRP offers a 1.25 & 1.5 ice track, Polaris offers one... for trail sleds.  This concept doesn't seem overly complicated to me for AC to offer their customers and they can charge more for it.  I have a Camso Ice Attak XT on my 720 and for trail riding actually like it more than I thought I would.  Those little pins aren't studs but do a great job on ice and for loading into the trailer when the rubber mat is slick.  

Holy balls on the bumpers, bags and optional running boards pricing, that's creeping into SkiDoo territory.  

[Deephaven]

2 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

Manufacturing is easier when you put every thing on to start.

Lol, you don't know jack shit about anything do you.  It is only easier if the operators need to make a decision, but the computers don't allow that.  Everything is scheduled, barcoded/labelled and easy to tell what to do.  Complexity of variation is really easy to manage in a simple way.

[Crnr2Crnr]

@p51mstg... about the overheating of the Riot on your ride.  what were the trail conditions and temps when you were riding it and it overheated?  did the techs make any adjustments to the sled while or after it occurred?  was it the 1.6 Cobra or 1.75 track?  of the overheated and ones with engine issues I recall from ACTR a while back most were 8000 Riots ridden in hard/cold conditions and likely without scratchers.   So, my question/concern would be that if this happened to you on (pre-production) 600's... what's going to happen when there's a big bore in them during imperfect conditions and the user isn't scratching and getting snow on the coolers? 

 

  edit:  while rewatching the video again just now, I notice quite a bit of snow blowing out under the flap on the rider in front of you.  this was the same thing I found recently on my brothers RXC when his was running warm.  turning the torsions down to setting '1' kept more snow from blowing out underneath.  this was a temporary solution in his case, not where the springs should be set for his or my weight or riding style.   

Edited March 3, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[p51mstg]

@Crnr2Crnr

The trail was a freshly groomed in that area and we had been idling during a stop.  I was not using scratchers and should have been.  A minute or two in the power next to the trail cured it and it didn't reoccur again (the trails got really rough after that).  You can actually see me running on the edge of the trail to kick up some powder - I didn't intentionally include that footage, it just worked out that way.

This Riot had the 1.75 track on it.  I think air temps were in the low teens, which was 15-20 degrees cooler than the day before.

My Riot would've probably done the same thing.  It's weird - the colder it is, the more likely mine will run warm.  

I didn't think to report that incident to the mechanics, because I figured it was "normal", compared to my Riot.  In hindsight, I probably should have.  We were trying to report any anomalies to them, since these were the first Catalysts off the line.

Yeah, the concern about the big bore crossed my mind, too.  If they don't increase cooling capacity, that could be a problem.

Edited March 3, 2023 by p51mstg

[p51mstg]

Funny story about that video thumbnail:  I was following a guy on a Riot 9000 EPS.  We had just hit 9 miles of the worst trail conditions I've ever seen, and I felt bad for the people riding ProCross sleds - they were getting beat up a lot worse than I was. 

Anyway, this guy ahead of me was starting to get tired from that trail and didn't anticipate a rather easy left hand turn.  He caught the edge of the trail, and the snow pulled him off into some trees.  A brand new 1-of-1 sled went straight into a pine tree and hit it hard enough that all the snow came off.

During our down time while everyone except me was waste deep in snow trying to get that heavy sled back out on the trail, I snapped the picture I used in the thumbnail.

When we got back, the mechanics wanted to know who was responsible for that.  One of them saw me leave the paddock area with that sled, and so I got blamed!  Even after I said who was riding it, they didn't believe me and they probably still blame me for that.  Fortunately, damage wasn't too bad and it was repaired that afternoon.

 

Edit:  If you see a 2024 Riot 9000 in Arctic Cat's promotional vids or pictures, that's the one that hit a tree during the photo shoot (and I wasn't driving it at the time, for the record).

Edited March 3, 2023 by p51mstg

[Crnr2Crnr]

26 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

@Crnr2Crnr

The trail was a freshly groomed in that area and we had been idling during a stop.  I was not using scratchers and should have been.  A minute or two in the power next to the trail cured it and it didn't reoccur again (the trails got really rough after that).  You can actually see me running on the edge of the trail to kick up some powder - I didn't intentionally include that footage, it just worked out that way.

This Riot had the 1.75 track on it.  I think air temps were in the low teens, which was 15-20 degrees cooler than the day before.

My Riot would've probably done the same thing.  It's weird - the colder it is, the more likely mine will run warm.  

I didn't think to report that incident to the mechanics, because I figured it was "normal", compared to my Riot.  In hindsight, I probably should have.  We were trying to report any anomalies to them, since these were the first Catalysts off the line.

Yeah, the concern about the big bore crossed my mind, too.  If they don't increase cooling capacity, that could be a problem.

yes, I saw you dipping off the side of the groom and from my own experience cold and hard conditions are more likely to cause liquid cooled sleds to overheat.  fan cooled, the complete opposite.  interestingly (to me) on both the RXC and Polaris XC race sleds they are allowed to add additional ventilation (holes) to the plastic body panels to aid in cooling.   on my toy sled after burning it down I added and took every measure to aid in reducing under hood temps and deliver as much additional snow/ice to the coolers as possible.  pdp vents, and yes... I hated drilling holes in the panels but as stated, all measures were taken.

 

[jdels]

For Christ sake, they best have put enough cooler in these things.  I just did 200 miles on the F7.  Several long road runs and dirt stretches with zero snow.  Not as much as a blink.  My ZR8 would have melted today.

[Crnr2Crnr]

14 hours ago, jdels said:

For Christ sake, they best have put enough cooler in these things.  I just did 200 miles on the F7.  Several long road runs and dirt stretches with zero snow.  Not as much as a blink.  My ZR8 would have melted today.

is it potentially a not enough cooler issue, or just not enough snow getting on the coolers issue?  my guess is the latter of the two. 

we're leaving to go riding in a bit, hard trails right now but likely loose this afternoon.  

[jdels]

9 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

is it potentially a not enough cooler issue, or just not enough snow getting on the coolers issue?  my guess is the latter of the two. 

we're leaving to go riding in a bit, hard trails right now but likely loose this afternoon.  

Either way.  Get it right.  There is absolutely no reason you should need scratchers on mid winter trail or have to worry about a quarter mile run down a road.  

[p51mstg]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:09 AM, jdels said:

Either way.  Get it right.  There is absolutely no reason you should need scratchers on mid winter trail or have to worry about a quarter mile run down a road.  

I have a 2002 Polaris that has a cooling system with enough capacity to handle a nuclear submarine.  Yet, we had a 2004 Polaris that would overheat crossing a 2-lane highway.  That's an obvious exaggeration, but it seems like there was a time when cooling systems were overbuilt and more forgiving.

Unfortunately, I think compromises have been made and it will take some outside force to return to a sane approach to cooling snowmobile engines.  I was at a club function yesterday, comparing note with a Polaris 650 owner.  We were lamenting about how the snow conditions have deteriorated and we needed to run scratchers to compensate.  I said my Riot was running 135F and decided to drop the scratchers.  He said, same stretch of trail, he was running 160F before dropping his scratchers.  Now, I don't feel so bad about my Riot.

[Crnr2Crnr]

10 hours ago, p51mstg said:

I have a 2002 Polaris that has a cooling system with enough capacity to handle a nuclear submarine.  Yet, we had a 2004 Polaris that would overheat crossing a 2-lane highway.  That's an obvious exaggeration, but it seems like there was a time when cooling systems were overbuilt and more forgiving.

Unfortunately, I think compromises have been made and it will take some outside force to return to a sane approach to cooling snowmobile engines.  I was at a club function yesterday, comparing note with a Polaris 650 owner.  We were lamenting about how the snow conditions have deteriorated and we needed to run scratchers to compensate.  I said my Riot was running 135F and decided to drop the scratchers.  He said, same stretch of trail, he was running 160F before dropping his scratchers.  Now, I don't feel so bad about my Riot.

on torsion spring setting two, between adding Doo wire scratchers and the tunnel flares to the RXC I've been consistently seeing 102-104 on the gauge.  have not ran it in very cold temps with hard trails yet... as we haven't had those temps.  lift the scratchers and you can pretty much add 20 degrees almost immediately.

[cats19]

Honestly if you want more buyers when you resell it, you'll want electric start.  Most people want e-start these days.

[ZR6000RR]

53 minutes ago, cats19 said:

Honestly if you want more buyers when you resell it, you'll want electric start.  Most people want e-start these days.

Exactly! 

[Crnr2Crnr]

2 hours ago, cats19 said:

Honestly if you want more buyers when you resell it, you'll want electric start.  Most people want e-start these days.

given the choice of lighter weight and better performance against rEsaLe vaLuE... I'll opt for performance.

who buys a sled and worries about resale value?  

 

 

[Deephaven]

Guys that want to rip off their brother.

[mnstang]

 

[Premium]

I think that was probably the most level headed (if a bit pessimistic) review I've seen yet. I definitely liked hearing that the ergonomics and feel of the sled are like a narrower/roomier 08-11 sno pro.

He specifically mentions that it doesn't really change the game as Polaris and Doo already have machines that put you much more forward.  This lends substantial credibility to the argument that Cat has simply caught up to the competition. Will the belt drive and composite boards be enough to carve out a legacy?

If you're not a Cat die-hard, what draws you to this machine? 

Hopefully next year has more answers.

[Deephaven]

The review is inline with reality, which IMO is a positive.  The Catalyst riding position looks exactly like my old IQR but with a better seating position...which had it had that I'd still be riding that sled.  It is how it felt when I sat on it a while back as well.  I have a lot of hope that the big bore version would be something I could own.  Atm the only sled I fit on is a Polaris.  The Procross has an awful sit/stand transition for someone of my height and the Doo is made for Canadian midgets.  The Catalyst solves this.  That all being said, the part of pessimism I didn't hear was that there is no way in hell I'd buy a first year engine, a first year chassis, a first year belt drive from ANY manufacturer.  Means that 2026 is the first year of the Catalyst for a potential purchase on my end as I also am not interested in a 600.  

 

[jdsky]

Good review and definitely says what everyone else already on rider forward chassis' know is that this is catching up not changing the game.  Is the belt better than a chain?  Only time will tell and that's just another hurdle to get over.  That's going to take thousands of sleds in owner's hands for thousands of miles before anyone will really know. It's definitely an advantage over having to change oil.

Cat will sell all that they are able to make for next season because there is just a ton of pent up demand within the cat faithful.  Hopefully next year brings an expanded lineup with additional engine options.