2024 Arctic Cat Catalyst 'Chassis' details?

[mnstang]

48 minutes ago, Boonbocker1 said:

I am anxious to see the belt drive adjustment in person. I have so many questions, is the eccentric adjuster on both side of the jackshaft?  If not. How does the system handle the angular misalignment of the sprockets?  What about the same angular misalignment on the clutch side?

Maybe a non issue if the complete jackshaft, top sprocket and secondary clutch all move together.  If not, I'm curious how the whole system will play out durability wise.  Its no secret that belts don't do well with misalignment.

 

I have the same questions.  I didn't consider they could do eccentric bearings on both ends of the shaft.  If they do it that way I'd feel good about it.  But have yet to hear that anywhere.

[ZR6000RR]

Just now, mnstang said:

I have the same questions.  I didn't consider they could do eccentric bearings on both ends of the shaft.  If they do it that way I'd feel good about it.  But have yet to hear that anywhere.

Only on the drive belt side. The bearings allow the shaft to move with the engine mounting system. 

[mnstang]

33 minutes ago, jdsky said:

Proven in racing?  What does that mean?  Have they run a race that lasted to infinity?  If so I missed that one. 

News flash dumstad, race sleds have an entirely different maintenance schedule than trail sleds.  Who knows, maybe they actually do run that belt an entire season without changing it.  Even if they do that's not infinite but I do understand how you wouldn't get this.

 

I'd bet money that factory Cat race team won't run a belt for a season.  I'd suspect they replace one every race.  

[mnstang]

2 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Only on the drive belt side. The bearings allow the shaft to move with the engine mounting system. 

I understand how it could be done on one side.  But we've talked about this before.  That would mean the jackshaft will change angles.  Which would create belt misalignment for CVT belt and cog belt.

[ZR6000RR]

7 minutes ago, mnstang said:

I understand how it could be done on one side.  But we've talked about this before.  That would mean the jackshaft will change angles.  Which would create belt misalignment for CVT belt and cog belt.

Not really. The clutch side is tied to the engine so the clutches movement is static with both clutches.

[Ziemann]

52 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said:

Don’t forget the motor mount that attaches to the heat exchanger and rips and leaks brilliant design, front suspension cross bar where it mounts cracks and the bar itself cracks in half too,3 wheel needs to be converted, cracked rails, jack shaft/reverse idk how many times that broke. My bud went through 3 to 4yrs of absolute hell with his 12 turbo. Literally everything on that sled has been changed but the motor but that’s Suzuki so obviously that’s good. After those first few years and thousand of dollars and time wasted it was a pretty good sled. His winder has been flawless for almost 10k. Anyone who says 12s were good 😂 😂 😂 

What? @800renegaderider The '12's weren't perfect??  

LOL- I forgot about all of the reverse issues that year on the Turbo's and the ongoing sage of reverse servos. Everyone playing with different belt deflection to allow the servo to engage, then having it strip it's gears....Good times... I remember the issues with the cracking heat exchanger mounts. As I recall that was only a Turbo issue. The jackshaft issues drove people nuts, but they seemed to offer an alternative quickly. I don't think anyone would question the durability of the Suzuki's- agreed 100%. 

Good times.....

[ZR6000RR]

Just now, ZR6000RR said:

Not really. The clutch side is tied to the engine so the clutches movement is static with both clutches.

I am also guessing they have confidence it it by racing the Stock Sled against modded sleds and winning races with  it.

[Ziemann]

2 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Not really. The clutch side is tied to the engine so the clutches movement is static with both clutches.

I'm assuming that there will need to still be some air flow directed under the hood to the belt drive. There will always be heat build up just from the friction on the cogs and inherent stretching of the belt- which will granted be minimal, but present none the less. Is anyone buying in to the idea of no service interval for that belt? 

[Boonbocker1]

8 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Not really. The clutch side is tied to the engine so the clutches movement is static with both clutches.

I'm imaging a roughly 2' long jackshaft fixed on 1 end (driven clutch side), and the eccentric on the opposite side.  If I adjust 1 side and not the other its easy to imagine the angle change as its magnified quite a bit that further it gets away from The adjustment mechanism.  How does this not throw the secondary off at an angle from the engine and primary clutch?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Boonbocker1

[ZR6000RR]

1 minute ago, Boonbocker1 said:

I'm imaging a roughly 2' long jackshaft fixed on 1 end (driven clutch side), and the eccentric on the opposite side.  If I adjust 1 side and not the other its easy to imagine the angle change as its magnified quite a bit that further it gets away from The adjustment mechanism.  How does this not throw the secondary off at an angle from the engine and primary clutch?

Because the movement is held in check by the TCL. 

[Boonbocker1]

7 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Because the movement is held in check by the TCL. 

How does the TCL compensate for an angled jackshaft?  The diagram below is obviously extremely exaggerated but it paints the picture in my head of the misalignment.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Boonbocker1

[ZR6000RR]

1 minute ago, Boonbocker1 said:

How does the TCL compensate for an angled jackshaft

Any tilt of the shaft (very little movement overall) the Secondary clutch moves the same amount and the motor mount system allows the engine to tilt with the shaft at the same angle so no misalignment. If you have a pro Cross, grab the secondary and move it by hand. The engine moves with it. 

[mnstang]

17 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Not really. The clutch side is tied to the engine so the clutches movement is static with both clutches.

Yeah really.  I think you are only thinking of center to center.  The TCL will only control center to center distance (and only at the bearing, not where the shaft extends).

If you move a solid shaft at only one end, and the other end is fixed (TCL), it will change the angle of the shaft.  Which changes the angle of the secondary clutch.  Which will change the parallelism of the two clutches.  Which is a crucial part of cvt belt alignment.

You're only considering center to center distance.  There is also parallelism and offset, the TCL only controls center to center.

[mnstang]

4 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Any tilt of the shaft (very little movement overall) the Secondary clutch moves the same amount and the motor mount system allows the engine to tilt with the shaft at the same angle so no misalignment. If you have a pro Cross, grab the secondary and move it by hand. The engine moves with it. 

No.  The jackshaft pivots in the TCL bearing.

[Boonbocker1]

6 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

Any tilt of the shaft (very little movement overall) the Secondary clutch moves the same amount and the motor mount system allows the engine to tilt with the shaft at the same angle so no misalignment. If you have a pro Cross, grab the secondary and move it by hand. The engine moves with it. 

If this is true it seems wild to me the engine placement can be manipulated by the eccentric on the top drive sprocket!  

[ZR6000RR]

2 minutes ago, mnstang said:

No.  The jackshaft pivots in the TCL bearing.

Wrong. It tilts on the belt drive side. Movement of the shaft is tied to the TCL, which is tied to the Engine keeping both clutches in the same plain. 

[mnstang]

18 minutes ago, Boonbocker1 said:

I'm imaging a roughly 2' long jackshaft fixed on 1 end (driven clutch side), and the eccentric on the opposite side.  If I adjust 1 side and not the other its easy to imagine the angle change as its magnified quite a bit that further it gets away from The adjustment mechanism.  How does this not throw the secondary off at an angle from the engine and primary clutch?

Also changing jackshaft angle will also the change parallel of the jackshaft and the driveshaft.  So that belt alignment will not be perfect either.

If they had eccentrics at both ends though, that would be the ticket.

[ZR6000RR]

6 minutes ago, mnstang said:

Also changing jackshaft angle will also the change parallel of the jackshaft and the driveshaft.  So that belt alignment will not be perfect either.

If they had eccentrics at both ends though, that would be the ticket.

 

Well it works just fine the way they have been doing it on the chain case sleds so I see no problem with the belt drive. 

The shaft does not flex and it moves very little on the case side. I mean very little and the TCL does not flex side to side.

Edited March 20, 2023 by ZR6000RR

[mnstang]

2 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

 

Well it works just fine the way they have been doing it on the chain case sleds so I see no problem with the belt drive. 

The shaft does not flex and it moves very little on the case side. I mean very little.

On chaincase sleds they use a tensioner.  They don't move the whole jackshaft.  So the issue we are talking about would be from moving the jackshaft only at one end, which changes the angle.

[Boonbocker1]

2 minutes ago, mnstang said:

On chaincase sleds they use a tensioner.  They don't move the whole jackshaft.  So the issue we are talking about would be from moving the jackshaft only at one end, which changes the angle.

You have a fixed engine centerline and a fixed drive shaft centerline and the jackshaft has the ability to be adjusted...ugh, I'm very curious to see this set up in person and hear how it works in thousands of average consumers hands.

Furthermore I fail to see the advantage of this system over the polaris system which has a fixed position.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Boonbocker1

[Crnr2Crnr]

if only the entire geometry of this system had been tested in the Iron Dog this year... 

 

[mnstang]

3 minutes ago, Boonbocker1 said:

You have a fixed engine centerline and a fixed drive shaft centerline and the jackshaft has the ability to be adjusted...ugh, I'm very curious to see this set up in person and hear how it works in thousands of average consumers hands.

Time will tell and we still don't know specifics of the system.  Maybe they move it at both ends..  I'm interested to see it in person also.  I wouldn't think the cog belt would like it being not square either.  Could promote the belt walking off the sprockets if there's no ridge, or wear if there is a ridge.  Making the jackshaft true and running a tensioner may be a future aftermarket fix if they indeed only move it at one end.

[ZR6000RR]

9 minutes ago, mnstang said:

On chaincase sleds they use a tensioner.  They don't move the whole jackshaft.  So the issue we are talking about would be from moving the jackshaft only at one end, which changes the angle.

It can't because the TCL does not flex side to side so the engine, primary and secondary all stay at the same alignment throughout the slight movement of the jackshaft. Just pull on your secondary of the Pro Cross and you will see engine movement as well. The motor mounts allow the engine to tilt ever so slightly.

[Boonbocker1]

4 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

It can't because the TCL does not flex side to side so the engine, primary and secondary all stay at the same alignment throughout the slight movement of the jackshaft. Just pull on your secondary of the Pro Cross and you will see engine movement as well. The motor mounts allow the engine to tilt ever so slightly.

If true, it Sounds like the eccentric adjuster is pointless, what good is an ever so slight adjustment?   I guess I need to see it in person to understand.

Anyone know if polaris has a patent around their fixed belt drive system?  If so it could explain why cat added an adjuster that ever so slightly adjusts the top sprocket.....just a work around for a fixed center system?

Its fun to be curious 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Boonbocker1

[mnstang]

1 minute ago, ZR6000RR said:

It can't because the TCL does not flex side to side so the engine, primary and secondary all stay at the same alignment throughout the slight movement of the jackshaft. Just pull on your secondary of the Pro Cross and you will see engine movement as well. The motor mounts allow the engine to tilt ever so slightly.

Every bearing has some play.  I'm not saying the TCL flexes.  Or the jackshaft.  But the jackshaft will change angle relative to the TCL this is because the bearing has some play and the jackshaft will pivot where it attaches to the TCL.  I don't think you are understanding leverage.  Take your chaincase off completely and move your jackshaft around.  You'll see the secondary clutch moving relative of the TCL.  Not in a center to center movement.  It changes angle.