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Ice over racing thoughts from Jim Dimmerman


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On Jim Dimmerman's facebook page he had some thoughts and Ice over races.  Interesting responses from some of the sports past legends and current racers

 

A great shot of Blaine Stephenson after his 4th WC. (photo credit SpeedShot)
I’d like to visit my earlier discussion about engine size on Champ class sleds.
I left you guys with my opinion about opening the motor size to at least 850cc. I know,I know you guys think I’m crazy but here’s my rational.
When I raced snopro back in the 70’s we had 4 manufactures all building racing engines up to 800cc’s. Little by little USSA dropped the motor sizes down from 800 to 650, 650 to 440, and finally by the year end of 1979 the premier class of Sno Pro was 340cc’s .Thats a story in itself but the main gist of it was for Driver Safety. A couple drivers got killed. They felt we were going too fast.
That thought lasted about 10 years and the manufactures were all clamming about showcasing the new big bore production sleds. We need a new class of racing they said!
The next thing I saw was Bender at Eagle River with a 800cc 180hp 4cyl F-3
Oh My’ so much for driver safety. “The race” was about these companies being able to have bragging rights about winning and convincing the consumer they needed to buy their brand. That philosophy is pretty much gone in oval racing. It’s down to 2 factory participants. 2 engines. Engine development now is in the hands of independent motor builders.
The factories themselves do not develop ANY of these oval racing engines anymore..
The present 440 cc engine has to go. Several reasons , bottom line Champ needs a Nex Gen motor.
One of the biggest complaints from Champ Class drivers that are let’s say small budget funded, is that the fast guys all have expensive hand picked motors from the top motor builders.
“They have more horsepower than I do”. These words ring out all the time..
I’ll cut to the chase. Let’s eliminate those words from Champ class racing !
If they allow an engine size of 850cc, Fully modified, EVERY driver will have at his disposal more than enough power to equalize the field. ANY of our current 2 strokes can be modified to over 200hp BUT very few tracks will hold 200+ hp in traction. The race will certainly become a tuner matching his package to conditions. It’s not going to be a race to see who can have the most power, but the right power to handle the track.
I can envision Electronic engine management, certainly fuel injection, and significant aerodynamic enhancements. We have several talented engine builders. Let them go to work.
I read in the previous post that Bender was offering a programmable ECU for sale. That’s exactly where this needs to go..
I read a book called DEVELOPING A CHAMPION by Chris Willes. It was the story of a garage type racer using his skills as an engineer, developing the Electramotive engine control system for GTP road racing with Nissan. He quickly learned that a 1000hp turbo engine was out of control without management. This was back in the early 80’s. Now engine control management is on nearly every race car. GET the book its great!
I’m suggesting that you let this class evolve and let technology creep in.
Sure this is going to be expensive, this class is not for beginners, it never was !
The excitement in Champ will quickly spread and spectators will get to see 4 brands of Champ representing Modern engines they have in their own trail riding sleds.. Jim
May be an image of outdoors
 
 
 
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    Jim Steere
    Makes perfect sense.
     
     
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    Don Lingenfelter
    I read this whole post and expected to see a picture of a Kat from a Kat guy, and look what we got ;{. Food for thought though Jim. I for one [a spectator] would like to see sleds flying different kolors. Look what just set a new grass record, 158 in 500 a sled on management.
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    Bob Bacci
    Very well said
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    Blaine Stephenson
    The issue with getting 850’s is per emissions they need to go into an assigned VIN. I.e they need to go into a trail sled. Each manufacturer gets one “race” engine that doesn’t have to meet specific emission standards. We would need to use the 600 Snocross motors. Just a thought and explanation on the 850 case going into a champ chassis. Not to mention we would be 120+ at Beausejour.
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      Jim Dimmerman
      Good point Blaine. I forgot about this engine emissions problem. You are right those motors have to be associated with a Ser#. My fear is that 600cc isn't enough to create parity in performance.
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      Blaine Stephenson
      Jim Dimmerman yeah, I’m not sure either
       
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      Albert Ratti
      Jim Dimmerman So a serial 600 with a big bore kit.
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    Brian Madsen
    We’ve got something similar to what you’re proposing, going on in 410 sprint cars these days. The engines are putting out over 900 horse but as the track changes, teams are detuning the engines to be able to get them to hook up to the track. It works. 👍🏻
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    Chuck Decker
    Joko and I have been saying this for years. Any engine you want. 146 studs and 6 inch carbide
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      Dale Lang
      Chuck Decker yep like street stocks , do whatever you want on narrow d.o.t . tires
       
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      Dave Watson
      Chuck Decker great start on a single page rule book 👍. Jim, You don’t know expensive until you let technology /electronics creep in. There’s a Lotta good points in the kiss principal of Motorsports
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      Sylvain Neron
      Chuck Decker tout se joue a ce niveau c’est très bien
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    Rory Haugen
    I agree 100% Jim.
     
     
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    Bryan Rocheleau
    Very well put!
     
     
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    Jeff Lausten
    Spot on.
     
     
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    Rick Simula
    Great article,and a cool futuristic view point..definetly worth the read...
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    Phil Sperling
    Well said everyone love to see there trail sled engine winning at the track this brings spectators coming to watch. Average consumer at the track don’t know team history they know brand loyalty
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    Jim Dimmerman
    Blaine Stephenson , I think I have a solution for the motor set# problem. If every manufacture pulls 12 crates and sends 2 to each sponsored team, they can pluck the motors and sell the chassis. 6 teams with 2 motors each.
     
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      Blaine Stephenson
      Jim Dimmerman I understand the thought but we have to se those sleds to fund the season!
       
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      Colton Graber
      And what about the teams not sponsored by a manufacturer.. what do they do for an engine?
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      Ben Urso
      Jim Dimmerman which leaves the rest of the non sponsored teams to buy two complete sleds to get their motors. I have a dealer here that tears some apart to keep the motor the chassis isn’t worth much after the motor is pulled. He sells the rolling chassis for $3500
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      Jim Dimmerman
      buy a new sled for the engine, sell the rest. Look for used sled for the engine..local dealer probably happy to get a new parts sled 💸
       
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      Ben Urso
      Jim Dimmerman I get it. I’m just saying the rolling chassis is only worth $3500. So you’re paying $10k for a stock motor.
      I’ve done this before
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    Brad Hulings
    How about supporting the F3 package. It needs a different name and some rules tweaks but it’s where the sport needs to go if you want some factory support.
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      Chris Riley
      Brad, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the name change, and proposed "tweaks" to the current F-3 deal. If you don't want to post here, give me a call some time to discuss. Thanks.
       
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      Ron Rombough
      Brad Hulings Great idea Brad! The problem comes back to my original comment about manufacturer support. How likely is it that Arctic Cat or Yamaha are ever going to get involved in oval racing again?
       
     
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    Bruce Beaurivage
    Jim I read it , I like it ! All makes sense !
     
     
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    Larry Huestis
    Somebody good at software can't unlock the ser# issue?
     
     
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    Sylvain Neron
    Your point of view is valid but if it becomes reality you will still have the same problem of cost management. Instead of putting $$$$$$ in modified pistons and cylinders, wealthy teams will put the same budget in programming and technology on engine m… 
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    Bill Roberts
    We’ll said Jim!
    As a racer from the 70’s, looking back at what you posted is the way to bring a sport to its knees. How be getting the drivers to sign release forms and get back to racing and stay out of the court system with all the defence lawyers.
     
     
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    Al Niemi Jr
    I agree
     
     
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    Howard Gifford
    One word will kill it....Insurance!
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      Chuck Decker
      Howard Gifford limited carbide and studs. Any engine you want. Speeds won’t be any faster then now
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      Chuck Decker
      Probably less but racing would be awesome
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    James Faucher
    Well said
     
     
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    Raymond Fouch
    How about using a stock 600cc motor, like F-3 is doing, but let each team do what they want with their suspensions!? I wonder what the CHAMP drivers want to do?
     
     
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    Michael Gifford
    Stock 600 cc Snocross motors with 32 mm carbs , any pipes with mod ecu. Reasonable power , reliable , and will sound like race motors is all champ class sleds need.
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      Chuck Decker
      Michael Gifford can’t say it loud enough. Any engine you want. Two strokes 4 strokes any size. 146 studs 6 inches of carbide. Champ chassis. $250 dollars show money $10,000 minimum guaranteed purse. 50 sleds every weekend
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      Michael Gifford
      The only problem with open motor rules I see will be too much power for the handling to be predictable. With the stock 600 with small carbs the handling won’t be any different than current champ rules and speeds will be oh so close.
       
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    Jim Dimmerman
    Hey Gunnar Sterne and Blaine Stephenson what’s your vision for the nex gen motor? There’s no wrong answer here guys..All I ask is think big picture not just 2 years out..
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      Gunnar Sterne
      Jim Dimmerman my thoughts are to switch to the 600 package. That’s what the factories race so we should also race it. I for one like the ambition of getting to work with Skidoo and work your way up into an opportunity to work with them if you’re a juni… 
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      Bruce Beaurivage
      Jim Dimmerman I am an Old Arctic Cat Racer from the 70’s , knew them all : Dave T , Charlie L , Durmont and Del , Duane and Richie Porter. I am not up on the rules but if I was still racing , I would appreciate your input and professionalism . Congrats… 
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    Ryan Heiting
    Well said!! Alot of good points! Hopefully some higher power people, ussa, isr are listening. Good stuff Jim
     
     
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    Jim Dimmerman
    Also my philosophy is keeping Champ similar as is.. maybe you guys want F-3 to replace it??
     
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      J Scott Mondus
      Jim Dimmerman not as written I will repeat history?
       
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      Kyle Boxall
      Jim Dimmerman I’ve been a die hard fan and also racer for quite a few years. Vintage, modern, champ. I enjoy watching most classes. If F3 is going to be the premier class, see ya. They’re boring to watch, they sound like crap.. etc. I don’t hate the id… 
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    TJ Patrick
    This could be the only answer to save snowmobile racing..here is how: It opens up the door for so many aftermarket parts that can grow the series!!!! opens up: shock manf, tracks, suspensions, Turbos, and sled builders, and so many diff motor builders… 
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      Gunnar Sterne
      TJ Patrick I think this avenue could work as well like you said it opens up more for aftermarket companies. Companies that have never been associated with ice oval racing. The crop of potential companies to be associated with the sport has become spars… 
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    Bobby Hogg
    Only thing that does is...benefit engine and aftermarket companies...not racers
    145 HP..600cc is pretty well edge of stupid ..as far as speed goes… 
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    Dave McFarlane
    Just don't go Electrical!! Lol
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    David McCarthy
    Great picture
     
     
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    J Scott Mondus
    Gunnar Sterne Gunner, just curious... my thoughts is there are very few racers that are concerned about anything except the how it effects them, and that is normal and ok! But it's not in the best interest of the sport many times? Just throwing that out there?
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    Raymond Fouch
    Oval racing needs to tap into TV money, ie commercials. etc. So many people would love to see oval racing on television who can't make it to the track. I have worked to try and find sponsorship money for teams on the MIRA circuit the past 2 years. Real… 
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    Dave McFarlane
    Kevin Beilke will figure it out.
     
     
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    Hal Armstrong
    Jim I like your thinking .
    Just run the 850/800 motors as stock and every team has more than enough power to be competitive. No more expensive Motors for the big teams with hard to find parts. Now it comes back to getting the power to the track , aerod… 
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      J Scott Mondus
      Hal Armstrong I'm all for stock motors, low compression limits, but you have to have pipes for the sound... ecm boxes should be issued at the track! Sorry TJ , I usually have your back, but No exotic materials "except" where they DO save money, like  
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      Hal Armstrong
      J Scott Mondus yes run a can like the Snocross sleds for the sound. If you get into pipes then once again the have and have nots come out on top again.
       
     
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    Randy Olson
    Jim Dimmerman, with all due respect to Gunnar Sterne and Blaine Stephenson what do the up and coming SMALL teams have for needs? These two elite teams have little far less influence on the long term than the 10 new teams coming up. That said, drastic c… 
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      Gunnar Sterne
      Randy Olson new parts are definitely not available. A class surviving on used parts being found and used has no future for the class. My opinions are just that but having a class that is semi affordable, easily accessible through parts and equipment an… 
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      Gifford Howard
      I disagree. Vintage SM 440 is the biggest class bar none and every motor is a used one that has the builders stamp on it.
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    Ron Rombough
    I relate Pro Champ to F1 or Indy cars and F3 to NASCAR. Unfortunately, F3 can't survive with only Polaris and Skidoo building sleds for a half dozen racers. The idea of an 800 cc engine makes sense if you put a "pipe" on it so the fans can hear it. If  
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    Scott Finke
    I absolutely am intrigued by all of these comments. Makes so much sense!!! But I have to admit.....I can't believe how Bender got that thing to turn like he did. It was fast as hell and I'd have thought it would turn like a dump truck. But it cornered well!
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      Ron Lance
      Scott Finke If you saw the Diameter of the Motorcycle brake disc he had mounted outside the Chain case you would understand he had the abilty to slow it down quickly. He also had the engine lowered as low in the chassis as possible. In no way as much a… 
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    Jason Smith
    This would even the playing field for us fat guys too!
     
     
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    Ron Rombough
    I'd like to personally thank Jim Dimmerman for bringing the subject of the future of professional ice oval racing to the forefront. LOTS of great ideas! Thanks for STILL caring, Jim!
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    Chris Riley
    This is absolutely fascinating reading, with some of the greatest names in Ice Oval History taking the time to comment. As to limiting costs and leveling the playing field, has any consideration gone into a spec fuel, with a limited octane? Sunoco Op… 
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      Jim Steere
      Chris Riley That's an elegantly simple solution. Wanna' finish, or grenade while leading?
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      Chris Riley
      Jim Steere we both know that limited octane keeps compression ratios and ignition timing limited, too.
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    Jim Dimmerman
    Lots of good ideas. I’m preparing for a little rebound.. after lunch.
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    Jim Dimmerman
    I know this is only a small section of interested players. I’m sensing that some of you want to see more of an equality in the motor package. I’ll be a little old school here but in modified racing, pushing the engine extreme is part of the lure. I’m s… 
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      Rick Simula
      Jim Dimmerman Very true ,John Hooper built a rotax mod motor on the bench putting out 10 more horespower on the Jaws Perfomance Dyno,than my Skidoo sandcast mod motor from the factory..any thing goes in true Mod..may the best engine builder and driver Win...
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      Kevin Bergstresser
      Jim Dimmerman I agree, open it up and watch the creative engineering. I like the previous comment about traction, cap that and see engine and chassis development maximize the rule. Just might have some very neat consumer products come from it. 🏁
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    J Scott Mondus
    Hal Armstrong I'm all for stock motors, low compression limits, but you have to have pipes for the sound... ecm boxes should be issued at the track! Sorry TJ , I usually have your back, but No exotic materials "except" where they DO save money, like  
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    Tim Berg
    My tongue is bleeding I have been biting it so hard........
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      Tim Berg
      And I am going to keep biting it--until I bleed out. 🙂
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      J Scott Mondus
      Tim Berg Tim, get it out! I have know you thru the politics of snopro days, please share your thoughts !
       
     
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    Brian Niver
    I have been in the oval race seen pretty much my whole life my 2/cents worth is that only the top funded teams will have the upper hand in stock engine program l believe that it costs much more $$ to make a stock (lol) sled faster than the rest of the  
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    Tom DePagter
    Super bikes could be an example, good for the manufacture and the fan. The guy on the street can buy a bike like he see’s on the track, builds the fan base who help pay the bills. Good bikes can be bought at a reasonable price to tune to race, aftermar… 
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    J Scott Mondus
    So, I hope most of the old snopro guys have someone that reads this thread.... myself and Alan Decker would like to host a let's call it a snopro reunion! We can rename and we want the current champ guys to be included! Next summer in the eagle Riv… 
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      Jim Dimmerman
      hey Scott you need to start a separate post for that idea. Have Allen do it.. you’ll probably get more reads…
       
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      J Scott Mondus
      Jim Dimmerman are you saying I'm not liked....lol...
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    Anders Holmberg
    Some super great ideas right there Jim Dimmerman . It needs to be engineered and modified to be a top shelf class. Spec engine racing takes too much away. We should applaud every bit of “think out of the box” engineering.
     
     
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    Bob Sanders
    Totally agree with Jim Dimmerman with his take on it ... also with a cookie cutter engine concept another problem creeps in ... Cheating...
     
     
 
 
 
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I disagree with so much of that thread it isn't funny. 

#1.  Not a lot of riders today really give a shit about racing, oval racing being the least fucks given.

#2.  800/850 powered sleds but minimize their ability to launch off the line, slow down and turn?  Stupid, fans want to see these machines and riders corner (and crash) at maximum velocity.  Reducing the stud count and carbide length would more dangerous to the drivers.  We've lost enough good racers over the years already.  Come to the Wausau 525 track this weekend for the Flip Merwin memorial who was killed at Eagle River.

#3. Get with the times ffs.  Take the current crop of 600cc SX sleds which can be purchased from the existing factory race programs, allow them the same mods as the SX class does (via ISR) in relation to the engine, ECU, exhaust and allow chassis modifications suitable to ice oval racing.  Is 120-150hp inadequate to go around a small circle?

#4.  Look at what Mira does, the best part of Eagle River as a spectator for me was the Enduro racers going their first 13 laps without a yellow flag with 21 sleds on the track rather than six laps with four red flag stops for five guys.  It's just fucking boring.  It's not the manufacturers fault that sport is dying, it's the people competing in it that are bogging it down.

 

That's my perspective as an occasional fan.

Any thoughts on the sleds and rules @fortune46x, as you actually attend ISR meetings and participate in racing   

 

Edited by Crnr2Crnr
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On 1/20/2022 at 12:00 PM, Crnr2Crnr said:

I disagree with so much of that thread it isn't funny. 

#1.  Not a lot of riders today really give a shit about racing, oval racing being the least fucks given.

#2.  800/850 powered sleds but minimize their ability to launch off the line, slow down and turn?  Stupid, fans want to see these machines and riders corner (and crash) at maximum velocity.  Reducing the stud count and carbide length would more dangerous to the drivers.  We've lost enough good racers over the years already.  Come to the Wausau 525 track this weekend for the Flip Merwin memorial who was killed at Eagle River.

#3. Get with the times ffs.  Take the current crop of 600cc SX sleds which can be purchased from the existing factory race programs, allow them the same mods as the SX class does (via ISR) in relation to the engine, ECU, exhaust and allow chassis modifications suitable to ice oval racing.  Is 120-150hp inadequate to go around a small circle?

#4.  Look at what Mira does, the best part of Eagle River as a spectator for me was the Enduro racers going their first 13 laps without a yellow flag with 21 sleds on the track rather than six laps with four red flag stops for five guys.  It's just fucking boring.  It's not the manufacturers fault that sport is dying, it's the people competing in it that are bogging it down.

 

That's my perspective as an occasional fan.

Any thoughts on the sleds and rules @fortune46x, as you actually attend ISR meetings and participate in racing   

 

IMO polaris and cat make a dedicated xc racer, use that platform. the sx is geared for 70mph and isn't intended for extended periods of WOT that ovals requires. I hate to even mention this but the god damn soo sleds are what any new class should be. Super stock 600 sleds with bone stock engines twin pipes (for sound only) and open suspension. 

Its taken snocross 4 years but the fields are starting to reflect the stock class changes as we are running a 18 pro class field, a 30 pro lite field, a 34-37 sport field and just as many sport lite racers and aside from some things popping up - a tight enforcement on rules has keep the classes going and growing. 

ovals needs to do something because its still fading and the shit we did in 72 mentality isn't fixing it. 

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Never been to an oval snowmobile race, but dirt track car racing is a lot of fun.  Actual stock classes using production models might make it interesting - create enthusiasm and brand loyalty.  I like that idea.

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1 hour ago, fortune46x said:

IMO polaris and cat make a dedicated xc racer, use that platform. the sx is geared for 70mph and isn't intended for extended periods of WOT that ovals requires. I hate to even mention this but the god damn soo sleds are what any new class should be. Super stock 600 sleds with bone stock engines twin pipes (for sound only) and open suspension. 

Its taken snocross 4 years but the fields are starting to reflect the stock class changes as we are running a 18 pro class field, a 30 pro lite field, a 34-37 sport field and just as many sport lite racers and aside from some things popping up - a tight enforcement on rules has keep the classes going and growing. 

ovals needs to do something because its still fading and the shit we did in 72 mentality isn't fixing it. 

Well said.  👏

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3 hours ago, fortune46x said:

IMO polaris and cat make a dedicated xc racer, use that platform. the sx is geared for 70mph and isn't intended for extended periods of WOT that ovals requires. I hate to even mention this but the god damn soo sleds are what any new class should be. Super stock 600 sleds with bone stock engines twin pipes (for sound only) and open suspension. 

Its taken snocross 4 years but the fields are starting to reflect the stock class changes as we are running a 18 pro class field, a 30 pro lite field, a 34-37 sport field and just as many sport lite racers and aside from some things popping up - a tight enforcement on rules has keep the classes going and growing. 

ovals needs to do something because its still fading and the shit we did in 72 mentality isn't fixing it. 

More classes will solve the problem.

You get a class!

And you get a class!

And you get a class!

And everyone gets their own classes!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

More classes will solve the problem.

You get a class!

And you get a class!

And you get a class!

And everyone gets their own classes!!!!!!!

my favorite line from the Dimmerman post that I can totally related to in a different sport is... 

if you want new blood you really only need 4 classes. For a good show.. don't continue to have same like classes so everyone can win.... semi pro is kinda like being "a little pregnant?," which are you?

 

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2 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

my favorite line from the Dimmerman post that I can totally related to in a different sport is... 

if you want new blood you really only need 4 classes. For a good show.. don't continue to have same like classes so everyone can win.... semi pro is kinda like being "a little pregnant?," which are you?

 

2-4 entry/budget classes, sport, semi-pro (depending on numbers), pro, and open.

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On 1/21/2022 at 1:47 PM, fortune46x said:

IMO polaris and cat make a dedicated xc racer, use that platform. the sx is geared for 70mph and isn't intended for extended periods of WOT that ovals requires. I hate to even mention this but the god damn soo sleds are what any new class should be. Super stock 600 sleds with bone stock engines twin pipes (for sound only) and open suspension. 

Its taken snocross 4 years but the fields are starting to reflect the stock class changes as we are running a 18 pro class field, a 30 pro lite field, a 34-37 sport field and just as many sport lite racers and aside from some things popping up - a tight enforcement on rules has keep the classes going and growing. 

ovals needs to do something because its still fading and the shit we did in 72 mentality isn't fixing it. 

otb, and see below

On 1/21/2022 at 9:44 PM, racinfarmer said:

2-4 entry/budget classes, sport, semi-pro (depending on numbers), pro, and open.

let's make it 5 and throw a mod class in there...
https://www.facebook.com/100063712565025/videos/pcb.330451175755299/307416724673118

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