Zambroski Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 26 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: They list the wp driven shaft, impeller and housing as the same from 2014 to current for 600&800. There are revised part numbers for the water pump cover and shaft but not the impeller. Uncertain why but my theory is if the pump was spinning too fast or the cover allowing too much flow the coolant doesn't stay in the cooling loop long enough to properly cool which elevates temps. The inverse can also occur if the pump and flow is insufficient and the coolant stays on the engine side too long. Another trick one can do under specific circumstances is to drill a tiny 1/16 bleed hole in the thermostat to assist in low speed cooling. Spending a decade in a radiator shop that dealt with everything from lawnmower to locomotive cooling systems, not to mention racing and performance applications taught me a thing or two. They should design a device that opens and shuts when designated coolant temperatures are reached. Hold on a second…. 3 minutes ago, mnstang said: What is the logic of the hole when you're above tstat opening temps you could have stopped after “hole”. I think he’s freebasing this morning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, mnstang said: What is the logic of the hole when you're above tstat opening temps Low rpm bleed circuit. On the Mopar big blocks and Hemi cars even with a 4row high efficiency radiator we found the stat needed to bleed off slightly more coolant before fully opening which provided more consistent temps and reduced heat spiking when the stat opens. Once the stat fully opens the bleed hole is inconsequential. It took my boss a dozen stats to dial in the proper size hole and hole location but once a customer had the drilled stat in they never called back with low speed or cruising temp issues. A lower temp stat just opens at a lower temp but does not reduce operating temps. Engineers spend a great deal of time and effort to determine an engines ideal operating temp and design every aspect of the cooling system around it. With EPA engines and emissions staying in the ideal heat range is crucial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 32 minutes ago, Zambroski said: They should design a device that opens and shuts when designated coolant temperatures are reached. Hold on a second…. you could have stopped after “hole”. I think he’s freebasing this morning. Tell us more about your personal experience with very expensive engines and vehicles. Why do some OEM thermostats come with a small hole and jiggle pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 New thermostat part # 0913-034 what's that little tiny hole for? Trying to find a picture of the original #0913-022 thermostat to see if it's also drilled. at the bare minimum the hole assists filling the cooling system in the engine by reducing air pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 53 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: Low rpm bleed circuit. On the Mopar big blocks and Hemi cars even with a 4row high efficiency radiator we found the stat needed to bleed off slightly more coolant before fully opening which provided more consistent temps and reduced heat spiking when the stat opens. Once the stat fully opens the bleed hole is inconsequential. It took my boss a dozen stats to dial in the proper size hole and hole location but once a customer had the drilled stat in they never called back with low speed or cruising temp issues. A lower temp stat just opens at a lower temp but does not reduce operating temps. Engineers spend a great deal of time and effort to determine an engines ideal operating temp and design every aspect of the cooling system around it. With EPA engines and emissions staying in the ideal heat range is crucial. We're on a topic of engines overheating. A thermostat bleed hole is irrelevant on the topic of sleds running 150+. Sure, it might make for a little more consistent operating temperature. But we're talking 20-50 degrees above thermostat opening. On snowmobiles. Not big block Mopar turds. And on the bold, that just makes zero sense. Lower temp thermostat opening absolutely lowers operating temps, given the cooling system is capable. The thermostat is the only thing that does control the minimum operating temperature. Just stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 Hence my question to you, read it again so I don't have to read more gobblygook. What is the logic of the hole when you're above tstat opening temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: New thermostat part # 0913-034 what's that little tiny hole for? Trying to find a picture of the original #0913-022 thermostat to see if it's also drilled. at the bare minimum the hole assists filling the cooling system in the engine by reducing air pockets. Sled engines dude! RELAX. VVVVVVVV 12 minutes ago, mnstang said: We're on a topic of engines overheating. A thermostat bleed hole is irrelevant on the topic of sleds running 150+. Sure, it might make for a little more consistent operating temperature. But we're talking 20-50 degrees above thermostat opening. On snowmobiles. Not big block Mopar turds. And on the bold, that just makes zero sense. Lower temp thermostat opening absolutely lowers operating temps, given the cooling system is capable. The thermostat is the only thing that does control the minimum operating temperature. Just stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 33 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Sled engines dude! RELAX. VVVVVVVV I accept your apology 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamgreen02 Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 My Procross does run hotter than many of the other sleds. It's especially bad on hard packed trails in the morning. I run cable scratchers. Usually just dropping one down in the morning works fine and then I can put them back up in the afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 37 minutes ago, mnstang said: Hence my question to you, read it again so I don't have to read more gobblygook. What is the logic of the hole when you're above tstat opening temps. https://www.freedomsledder.com/index.php?/topic/42535-is-the-procross-chassis-prone-to-overheat/&do=findComment&comment=1294613 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
favoritos Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 It's a combination of two things. Thermostat sticking or water pump impeller breaking loose from the soft mount. If you are really lucky, the impeller failure will make the thermostat stick. It's notable because the water pump sorta spins the impeller while it is failing. But, if the thermostat is sticking at the same time, it's over heat city. The updated thermostat is a better acting two stage version. The loose ones will let the sled run in the 109-115 range most of the time. The cooling systems are just barely adequate. The slightest hiccup will cause overheating. Once they start getting hot, the whole works is a huge heat sink that holds the heat. It takes a lot to cool them down at that point. Sadly, the heat exchangers are also less effective once they are hot. Even when the parts are working, the capacity threshold is an issue. If you reach that point, the temps just keep climbing. Ironically, the motors that run a little lean and therefore stronger, have higher running temps. Those nice running machines are right at the edge of starting to run hot. If all the parts are working, you can do one trick to help temps. Stop at every single damn culvers and eat a ton. The extra hundred pounds will make a difference. It's good for 15-20 degrees. Seems friggin stupid, but we swap riders on the strong runners when we are running right on the edge. We also see a big difference in grooming practices. Some clubs make nice granular snow that looks nice and smooth but cools like crap. Big guys get to ride those sections on the nice running sleds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: I accept your apology 🤣 You’re welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, Zambroski said: You’re welcome. So what have we learned today? The latest Cat 6000/8000 thermostat opens at 85 degrees F and it has a bleed hole. The water pump drive shaft, and housing both have new part numbers but we don't know what the design change is if there is one. The water pump impeller itself has not changed part numbers from what I can find. We don't know if the original thermostat design has a bleed hole. https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/arc/597b973d87a86612b8d8f27d/water-pump-and-thermostat Would be great to do a teardown and see if there is a visible or measurable difference between these items. I'm speculating there is and it's partially relevant to some of the issues of running warm on the 800's. Has anyone heard of the 600's running warm, or the Zuke 800's? I'm with @favoritos and would bet they found the 6000 cooling system just adequate enough not to warrant the expense of engineering a more robust cooling system for the 8000 EPA mills. But I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat45 Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Not greg b said: I ran mine on a snow bank for like an hour or so and that helped. They did change the water pumps on the 20 or 21 I believe. Also is yours a 129 or 137? My other 2 rr were 129 and they never had cooling issues, my 19 137 is terrible. Mine is a 137. Ran it with the front up in the air too but didn't help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 The problem is really simple on these. The coolers are not cooling the coolant. This could be due to design/placement of coolers and/or lack of snow getting into the tunnel. But when you're overheating on a trail and can cool off to 105 in seconds of jumping off of the trail, that has nothing to do with water pumps and certainly not a fucking hole in the thermostat. That isn't to say parts can't fail and cause other issues but I think we're talking about inherent cooling problem of the procross chassis. I will conclude by saying corner boy is a moron who has been on actr Facebook group too long, apparently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sled_Hed Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mnstang said: The problem is really simple on these. The coolers are not cooling the coolant. This could be due to design/placement of coolers and/or lack of snow getting into the tunnel. But when you're overheating on a trail and can cool off to 105 in seconds of jumping off of the trail, that has nothing to do with water pumps and certainly not a fucking hole in the thermostat. That isn't to say parts can't fail and cause other issues but I think we're talking about inherent cooling problem of the procross chassis. I will conclude by saying corner boy is a moron who has been on actr Facebook group too long, apparently. There has been mild trolling on ACTR from said person. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdels Posted January 5, 2022 Author Share Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mnstang said: The problem is really simple on these. The coolers are not cooling the coolant. This could be due to design/placement of coolers and/or lack of snow getting into the tunnel. But when you're overheating on a trail and can cool off to 105 in seconds of jumping off of the trail, that has nothing to do with water pumps and certainly not a fucking hole in the thermostat. That isn't to say parts can't fail and cause other issues but I think we're talking about inherent cooling problem of the procross chassis. I will conclude by saying corner boy is a moron who has been on actr Facebook group too long, apparently. After just two rides of about 280 miles total I have to agree. There were spots where I could duck into a ten foot stretch of powder hammer the throttle and literally five seconds later would see a drop of 20 degrees. Of course as soon as that cold spot of coolant passed the sensor temps would spike right back up. This suggests there is no where near enough snow getting to the rear exchanger. When there is it seems to work. Not sure of any meaningful way to get more snow up there other than scratchers unfortunately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Sled_Hed said: There has been mild trolling on ACTR from said person. Mild? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 2 hours ago, mnstang said: I will conclude by saying corner boy is a moron who has been on actr Facebook group too long, apparently. Maybe, but my overall knowledge of cooling systems is undeniable. Pm me your address and I'll send you an updated thermostat for your 19. My treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sled_Hed Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: Maybe, but my overall knowledge of cooling systems is undeniable. Pm me your address and I'll send you an updated thermostat for your 19. My treat. His address is 600 Brooks Ave S, Thief River Falls, MN 56701 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 52 minutes ago, Sled_Hed said: His address is 600 Brooks Ave S, Thief River Falls, MN 56701 Did you just dox me? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p51mstg Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1060 West Addison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Sled_Hed said: His address is 600 Brooks Ave S, Thief River Falls, MN 56701 No it isn't. He and I know how to get in touch. Time for dinner, just finished snowblowing three driveways and drilling a dozen thermostats. Starting my own fix kit business. Drilled stats and Snow Trackers are going to pay for our dogs next vet appointment. Anyone know how tf to get the hood off a Procross? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sled_Hed Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: No it isn't. He and I know how to get in touch. Time for dinner, just finished snowblowing three driveways and drilling a dozen thermostats. Starting my own fix kit business. Drilled stats and Snow Trackers are going to pay for our dogs next vet appointment. Anyone know how tf to get the hood off a Procross? You're an unsung hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Sled_Hed said: You're an unsung hero. Edited January 6, 2022 by Crnr2Crnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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