Standby generators

[probill]

8 hours ago, irv said:

I didn't know that but it makes sense now how XCR was stressing to shut the main breaker off.

My friend may not now then?? I know I asked him to hook me a up switch for my furnace before and he refused. He's the smartest/most knowledgeable guy I know but he can be  a little odd/different at times. Even if I promise/ensure him that I'll shut of the breaker, he still might not want to help me out?  

Thanks for the info. That goes to XCR and Polaris as well.

I appreciate the help guys! 

I know very little about being an electrician but while I was working with our IT dept our lead guy was fanatical about running clean "power" to anything computerized. He told me that if your furnace is of the newer variety and has a mother board you should protect it by running the generator thru a UPS before it gets to the furnace to protect the mother board in the furnace. I had the service manager from the local HVAC company echo the same but I really have no knowledge if this info is just being extra cautious or not. I know mother boards can be expensive if they need to be replaced. 

[XCR1250]

1 minute ago, Mileage Psycho said:

WTF do I know, I'm only a licensed Supervising Electrician in the jusrisdiction that has the toughest licensing test in the country

Who gives a fuck about an unbalanced load........

I understand what you're saying, but I've done it this way for 53 years, I've never had any heating issues, many others here do the same thing and have long before I moved here. Depending on the time of year when we lose power (usually a couple times a month including yesterday) I run the furnace, sump pump, Fridge, some lights & TV.

[DriftBusta]

17kw Generac on a natural gas feed and automatic transfer switch.  Runs everything in the house.  *Installed by a licensed electrician.  

[Mileage Psycho]

Just now, XCR1250 said:

I understand what you're saying, but I've done it this way for 53 years, I've never had any heating issues, many others here do the same thing and have long before I moved here. Depending on the time of year when we lose power (usually a couple times a month including yesterday) I run the furnace, sump pump, Fridge, some lights & TV.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but there is hazards for the average Joe, you're a very mechanical guy.....you get it, many don't

[XCR1250]

8 minutes ago, probill said:

I know very little about being an electrician but while I was working with our IT dept our lead guy was fanatical about running clean "power" to anything computerized. He told me that if your furnace is of the newer variety and has a mother board you should protect it by running the generator thru a UPS before it gets to the furnace to protect the mother board in the furnace. I had the service manager from the local HVAC company echo the same but I really have no knowledge if this info is just being extra cautious or not. I know mother boards can be expensive if they need to be replaced. 

I buy all my Furnace parts from JL Larson, great discount..couple years back I bought a 100,000 BTU furnace from them for under $900, I worked for a Heating Company when I was a young man so I did the install & Gas hookup myself, I still repair some furnaces in this area..

Edited November 28, 2019 by XCR1250

[Woodtick]

https://www.thespruce.com/balancing-electrical-loads-1152238

[XCR1250]

15 minutes ago, Mileage Psycho said:

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but there is hazards for the average Joe, you're a very mechanical guy.....you get it, many don't

I believe it was last Monday, but a guy and his wife here had an electrical fire in an overhead (vaulted ceiling) "Can Light" they called it, wth is a Can Light? F.D. pumped 200 gallons of Water in their living room and knocked the fire down quickly, it had burned a small hole thru the roof too.

[bussman]

6 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

I believe it was last Monday, but a guy and his wife here had an electrical fire in an overhead (vaulted ceiling) "Can Light" they called it, wth is a Can Light? F.D. pumped 200 gallons of Water in their living room and knocked the fire down quickly, it had burned a small hole thru the roof too.

Can light is a recessed light fixture. 

[Woodtick]

27 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

I understand what you're saying, but I've done it this way for 53 years, I've never had any heating issues, many others here do the same thing and have long before I moved here. Depending on the time of year when we lose power (usually a couple times a month including yesterday) I run the furnace, sump pump, Fridge, some lights & TV.

If you are doing it that often,put a manual transfer switch in. Cheap insurance.https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/manual-transfer-switches.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu4DG_YqN5gIVtv7jBx30mQoQEAAYAiABEgLklvD_BwE

[XCR1250]

1 minute ago, bussman said:

Can light is a recessed light fixture. 

Wonder why that would start on fire..dunno?

[Mileage Psycho]

4 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

I believe it was last Monday, but a guy and his wife here had an electrical fire in an overhead (vaulted ceiling) "Can Light" they called it, wth is a Can Light? F.D. pumped 200 gallons of Water in their living room and knocked the fire down quickly, it had burned a small hole thru the roof too.

Can light below.

The other thing you have to be concerned with when backfeeding a panel is the failure of the MB to open, I've seen it happen they are mechanical devices that have failures, the problem them becomes that you are energizing the feed going out to the pole, now the lineman should test, but whether he does or doesn't whoever energized that line illegally is responsible for any injury or death that may occur.

 

 

[XCR1250]

1 minute ago, Woodtick said:

If you are doing it that often,put a manual transfer switch in. Cheap insurance.https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/manual-transfer-switches.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu4DG_YqN5gIVtv7jBx30mQoQEAAYAiABEgLklvD_BwE

Power Company we have has major issues with trees coming down even when not stormy, and being in the National Forest, also the soil is all rocks so hard to bury anything, most wires here are overhead.

[Mileage Psycho]

Just now, XCR1250 said:

Wonder why that would start on fire..dunno?

A few things could be: Bad connection creating heat, low grade short that creates heat without blowing the breaker, dead short and the breaker fails to open.

[XCR1250]

2 minutes ago, Mileage Psycho said:

Can light below.

The other thing you have to be concerned with when backfeeding a panel is the failure of the MB to open, I've seen it happen they are mechanical devices that have failures, the problem them becomes that you are energizing the feed going out to the pole, now the lineman should test, but whether he does or doesn't whoever energized that line illegally is responsible for any injury or death that may occur.

 

 

I can see that being an issue, the one thing I have going for me anyhow, is that the attached garage has the main Breaker Box which then subfeeds to the house, I always turn off both mains.

[Mileage Psycho]

1 minute ago, XCR1250 said:

I can see that being an issue, the one thing I have going for me anyhow, is that the attached garage has the main Breaker Box which then subfeeds to the house, I always turn off both mains.

Just remember those breakers are a mechanical device and we know mechanical devices fail, so if your're going keep doing the backfeed do one more step and test the breaker to make sure it opened

[Woodtick]

2 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

Power Company we have has major issues with trees coming down even when not stormy, and being in the National Forest, also the soil is all rocks so hard to bury anything, most wires here are overhead.

My power never goes out at home. Goes out all of the time at the cabin for the same reasons as you. A transfer switch makes it fast and easy.

[XCR1250]

3 minutes ago, Mileage Psycho said:

A few things could be: Bad connection creating heat, low grade short that creates heat without blowing the breaker, dead short and the breaker fails to open.

Few years ago during a Power restore in my area, they forgot to hook up my neutral wire after the Storm had knocked the Power pole down, I was on the fire Department helping others, at the time, when I came home I noticed my Fridge was humming and a couple radios were smoking, they paid for all the damage but that was scary.

[favoritos]

🤯  Some advice here is good.  Some is a little scary.

If you really want to run the home just like a normal day, don't go with the temporary hillbilly hookups.  Those are fine for a short emergency once and awhile if you stick to freezer, fridge, and fans off a wood stove, etc.

Running the whole house?  Do it right and you will have a whole lot less hassle and worry.

Clean power is a bigger deal than most realize.  It will only get worse.  We continue to see high tech put into basic home electronics.

What do you really want out of the generator?  Three days of normal living to keep the wifey happy when the lights go out?  Spend a little and do it right.  Use an automatic transfer switch and auto start.  A good generator with that combo will also save your components.  If you only lose power once and awhile, it is a spendy way to cover comfort.

Those service plan prices seem a bit extreme unless they are truly load testing and running those units.  It is still too high for a residential application IMO.  It should also vary based on the fuel source selected.

Going with a temporary setup should only be used for a temporary situation.  Plan on shutting down all the stuff you don't need.  Use the power to save food and create enough heat to save water lines etc.

[XCR1250]

Just now, Mileage Psycho said:

Just remember those breakers are a mechanical device and we know mechanical devices fail, so if your're going keep doing the backfeed do one more step and test the breaker to make sure it opened

Will do, I always have a VOM nearby and a clamp meter.

[NaturallyAspirated]

1 hour ago, Woodtick said:

It’s the way it feeds the panel. It’s will be uneven power in the panel. The Buss bar for the dryer breaker will get hot. 

Not exactly correct.  The direction of flow on the bus bar is reciprocal.  The bus bar will remain within nominal limits as long as power levels remain at the breaker rating.  The bar and breaker will get no more hot than a nominal load placed on the circuit.

Also the power provided will be no more uneven than the generation source supplies, and the house consumes.  

Neal

[Woodtick]

7 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

Not exactly correct.  The direction of flow on the bus bar is reciprocal.  The bus bar will remain within nominal limits as long as power levels remain at the breaker rating.  The bar and breaker will get no more hot than a nominal load placed on the circuit.

Also the power provided will be no more uneven than the generation source supplies, and the house consumes.  

Neal

It’s the uneven distribution of the power,That can be the problem. We can go back and forth all day on this. A transfer switch is the only right way of doing it. Other ways will work, but not necessarily the right way. I’ve seen plenty of smoked TVs, boards,and appliances. Some of these new fridges have inverter motors in them.

[Big Crappie]

1 hour ago, Woodtick said:

It’s the way it feeds the panel. It’s will be uneven power in the panel. The Buss bar for the dryer breaker will get hot. 

the 2 pole breaker for the dryer is connected to both buss bars for 220v. How would the load be unbalanced?

Irv, do this right, have a licensed electrician install a transfer switch of some sort for ease of use and safety. Just my 2 cents.

Another option is a generator interlock kit that goes in the panel. It won't allow both the main breaker and the breaker being fed by the generator to be on at the same time.

example... https://apelectric.com/transfer-switches/manual-transfer-switches/interlock-manual-transfer-switch-kits?msclkid=5850495bd4b81d77ebb6148437280abc&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=DSA&utm_term=transfer switches &utm_content=Transfer Switches

[Big Crappie]

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Edited November 28, 2019 by Big Crappie

[irv]

Thanks again for all the info guys. 

Sounds like I need to do some more info searching first as I'd like it done right. My plan, like I stated, is only for emergencies and I don't plan on trying to run the whole house with power, just the essentials until our regular/city power is restored.

I'll talk to my friend and get info from him first and see if he can help me out? It might be too late in the year now to have anything installed so I will have to live with what I got, which, like I stated, will run fridges/freezer and some small heaters. The rest, like lights, T.V's, etc, I can live without.

 

 

[NaturallyAspirated]

26 minutes ago, Woodtick said:

It’s the uneven distribution of the power,That can be the problem. We can go back and forth all day on this. A transfer switch is the only right way of doing it. Other ways will work, but not necessarily the right way. I’ve seen plenty of smoked TVs, boards,and appliances. Some of these new fridges have inverter motors in them.

It is no more uneven than feeding via mains.  It is the division of the loads that balances or unbalances the split leg, not the source (if running nominally).

We can.

"right way" is arbitrarily defined.  There is nothing "wrong" with back feeding from a technical standpoint, and if properly done, it is safe and reasonable way to power a home during outages.

Neal