motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, SSFB said: The days of having a job for 30 years without learning new skills are gone. People are going to have to stay on top of things and learn new skills to stay competitive in the job market. Or we could just do what we were good at for as long as we felt like it and not have to worry about starving or being homeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Capitalism cannot exist without government. Lmao. The fact is, the vast majority of death and destruction taking place right now is being done by capitalist governments. Nothing in this world is done unless it makes somebody a buck, good and bad. Expecting that kind of system to lead to the best conditions for humanity is completely foolish. Capitalism is the free exchange of goods, it doesn't depend on the use of force like Communism. Yep, but how many Capitalist countries are not engaging in genocide and destruction? It's far from perfect but it's better than it's ever been. If nothing in this world gets done unless it makes someone a buck then it sounds like Capitalism is the best system for humans. How would a system like Communism be better for humans who have not yet shed the attributes you stated that they have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Or we could just do what we were good at for as long as we felt like it and not have to worry about starving or being homeless. A lot of people aren't good at anything and cannot contribute to their own livelihood or society's if they had to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinfarmer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Or we could just do what we were good at for as long as we felt like it and not have to worry about starving or being homeless. If you are good at sticking a paint brush in your snatch and using period blood as paint, you are probably destine to be a starving artist, no matter how good you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Lol! I got sucked back in again. SSFB....you got this. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, ICEMAN! said: It's tough to even say that. What skills do you invest in? If there is any chance it can be automated, you're doomed and on top of that there won't be enough jobs to go around. This is why universal basic income is being discussed so widely right now. An open mind and a strong work ethic will always go a long way. 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Or we could just do what we were good at for as long as we felt like it and not have to worry about starving or being homeless. So stop the march of progress because it feels good? Besides, we have LESS people starving today than 100+ years ago, remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEMAN! Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, SSFB said: An open mind and a strong work ethic will always go a long way. I agree, but it won't help much in regards to finding a traditional job in the future. What's different here is the scale of disruption and change and the speed with which it will occur. Jesus, that BigThink video I linked talked about technology even doing away with doctors. You'll get a better, and more accurate real time diagnosis from your watch and it will inform you of an impending health issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, SSFB said: Capitalism is the free exchange of goods, it doesn't depend on the use of force like Communism. Yep, but how many Capitalist countries are not engaging in genocide and destruction? It's far from perfect but it's better than it's ever been. If nothing in this world gets done unless it makes someone a buck then it sounds like Capitalism is the best system for humans. How would a system like Communism be better for humans who have not yet shed the attributes you stated that they have? Are you serious right now? Capitalism absolutely requires the force of the state to exist. It needs police protection, courts, issuance of currency, and of course new areas to exploit. New areas often acquired with state power and state monopoly on violence. It also hates competition, which is why you've seen every single anti capitalist state taken down by imperial capitalists. 7 minutes ago, SSFB said: An open mind and a strong work ethic will always go a long way. So stop the march of progress because it feels good? Besides, we have LESS people starving today than 100+ years ago, remember? Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell. The same was said about feudalism. No slave ever lived better than the peasant subject. No peasant ever lived better than the wage slave. It's a logical fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, ICEMAN! said: I agree, but it won't help much in regards to finding a traditional job in the future. What's different here is the scale of disruption and change and the speed with which it will occur. Jesus, that BigThink video I linked talked about technology even doing away with doctors. You'll get a better, and more accurate real time diagnosis from your watch and it will inform you of an impending health issue. Well, if we do get to the point where universal basic income is needed because almost nobody has jobs, it will be pretty embarrassing for the people who rail against the "evils of capitalism" when it is actually capitalism that puts people on equal footing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Just now, SSFB said: Well, if we do get to the point where universal basic income is needed because almost nobody has jobs, it will be pretty embarrassing for the people who rail against the "evils of capitalism" when it is actually capitalism that puts people on equal footing. Slavery begot feudalism. Feudalism begot capitalism. Capitalism begot communism. We will of course use the capitalists' ropes to hang them. It is inevitable. What you're missing, though, is capitalism didn't achieve any of this, humanity did. Capitalism is merely a social construct. A tool that we use to manipulate and interpret the world. You might as well give credit to the hammer and saw for building the house and not the builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Are you serious right now? Capitalism absolutely requires the force of the state to exist. It needs police protection, courts, issuance of currency, and of course new areas to exploit. New areas often acquired with state power and state monopoly on violence. It also hates competition, which is why you've seen every single anti capitalist state taken down by imperial capitalists. Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell. The same was said about feudalism. No slave ever lived better than the peasant subject. No peasant ever lived better than the wage slave. It's a logical fallacy. Police protection in the face of initiated force is not equal to the force that was used by the aggressor in the first place. Same with courts. Police and courts are there to protect people and they do a good job of it when they aren't allowed to grow uncontrollably. Communism requires even more force by government than a Capitalist state as evidenced by the historical record. Not growth for the sake of growth. It's just growth that results from the natural flow of things, you can't stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Slavery begot feudalism. Feudalism begot capitalism. Capitalism begot communism. We will of course use the capitalists' ropes to hang them. It is inevitable. What you're missing, though, is capitalism didn't achieve any of this, humanity did. Capitalism is merely a social construct. A tool that we use to manipulate and interpret the world. You might as well give credit to the hammer and saw for building the house and not the builder. Yeah and Capitalism was the best tool for the job to get to where we are, made perfectly clear by your house analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, SSFB said: Yeah and Capitalism was the best tool for the job to get to where we are, made perfectly clear by your house analogy. It's not the best tool. It's the tool we are forced to use by the same people who hold the monopoly on violence. We could have applied the very same skill with different tools, and built more houses, or better houses, or cheaper houses, or all of those. But we were forced, through state power and mass indoctrination, to use tools that exploited, hurt, and killed people. But we knew way back in the 19th century that capitalists will always seek to reduce their exposure to labor costs. They will also expect to have a market with unlimited demand for all the products they make. This contradiction was identified by Marx and others during the very beginning stages of capitalism. Even the rich acknowledge its existence today, which is why they're talking about UBI. They know that this debt bubble won't last, and that the whole system is slowing down and buckling under this massive debt incursion. UBI will fail too, because it won't be near enough to live on and will be used as a political football. This is why rejection of the state completely is important. That's not to say we shouldn't have governments or order, we should. It just shouldn't be enshrined in some untouchable institution that cannot be dismantled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 48 minutes ago, Zambroski said: A lot of people aren't good at anything and cannot contribute to their own livelihood or society's if they had to. I reject that, everyone is good at something. And those that truly cannot contribute shouldn't be sentenced to a life of shame and poverty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: I reject that, everyone is good at something. And those that truly cannot contribute shouldn't be sentenced to a life of shame and poverty. I would agree that everyone is good at something, even if they haven't found/realized what they're good at yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, SSFB said: I would agree that everyone is good at something, even if they haven't found/realized what they're good at yet. And I'm saying conditions created by capitalism have stifled that growth in a lot of people. There could be minds out there more brilliant than Einstein but they'll never get to reach their full potential because they were born in the wrong neighborhood or in the wrong country. That's violence to the entire human race on a massive scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: And I'm saying conditions created by capitalism have stifled that growth in a lot of people. There could be minds out there more brilliant than Einstein but they'll never get to reach their full potential because they were born in the wrong neighborhood or in the wrong country. That's violence to the entire human race on a massive scale. There's no way to ensure that all of these possible Einsteins have a chance to reach their potential because human fears and other qualities prevent us from doing an Earth-wide "Kumbaya". These are qualities that won't leave the human race for hundreds of thousands of years, probably at a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Is this like being out of oil by 1990 or NYC being underwater by 2015 or what ever it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, SSFB said: There's no way to ensure that all of these possible Einsteins have a chance to reach their potential because human fears and other qualities prevent us from doing an Earth-wide "Kumbaya". These are qualities that won't leave the human race for hundreds of thousands of years, probably at a minimum. Im a little more optimistic, but we gotta start somewhere. Education is key. This is why the liberal arts are important. Philosophy can change society just as quickly as technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Im a little more optimistic, but we gotta start somewhere. Education is key. This is why the liberal arts are important. Philosophy can change society just as quickly as technology. fuck that's funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, Momorider said: fuck that's funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, SSFB said: Sheepshitforbrains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, motonoggin said: Im a little more optimistic, but we gotta start somewhere. Education is key. This is why the liberal arts are important. Philosophy can change society just as quickly as technology. Yeah right. I have swamp land in Florida I'll sell you. Get it wile it's a bargain. Climate change is going to turn it into a nice lake by 2020. Arts degrees are as useful as the proverbial screen door on a submarine. The fool with the degree in literature is good for one thing and that's self perpetuating, teaching the next fool who wants a degree in literature. Edited February 17, 2017 by 02sled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 10 hours ago, ICEMAN! said: Capitalism as we know it has a limited life expectancy. No. Liberalism has a life expectancy. Give shit to those who "need" it until everyone needs it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 hours ago, 02sled said: Yeah right. I have swamp land in Florida I'll sell you. Get it wile it's a bargain. Climate change is going to turn it into a nice lake by 2020. Arts degrees are as useful as the proverbial screen door on a submarine. The fool with the degree in literature is good for one thing and that's self perpetuating, teaching the next fool who wants a degree in literature. You don't even know what the liberal arts are. You just hear the word 'liberal' and your Pavlovian response kicks in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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