Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Author Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: So we already have communism? If in your communism you can choose multiple means of production to own even if you are not a part of that production than sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1jkw Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Highmark said: Hardly anybody works for MW. We are looking ave wages and compensation in the US. Union workers are a part of that and should be included just like the MW workers affect the average. I'm willing to bet good money the ave union compensation is not 3x's non union. Isn't even close in my area. In fact most union workers that are left are no better and often times less. Companies pay good to avoid the whole headache. Your 7 x 3 assumption is that all union is 3x and its simply not the case. We have no union here to speak of the nurses at the local hospital are the only ones, HVAC mechanics range from 10.00 to 20.00 per hr. here as did sprinkler fitters ect. union wages for these positions are 40.00 and up depending on area. We have 3 very large road construction companies here, the workers all bitch when they aren't on a rate job because they are paid2 to 3 time their normal rate and more if they are in the Philadelphia area. Not to mention the health care and retirement of union vs. non union. The wages for a union worker are only tied to a percentage above the MW and all unions are not tied to MW in that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Highmark said: If in your communism you can choose multiple means of production to own even if you are not a part of that production than sure. Democratization of the workplace is a core principle in socialism/communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Highmark said: Hardly anybody works for MW. We are looking ave wages and compensation in the US. Union workers are a part of that and should be included just like the MW workers affect the average. I'm willing to bet good money the ave union compensation is not 3x's non union. Isn't even close in my area. In fact most union workers that are left are no better and often times less. Companies pay good to avoid the whole headache. Your 7 x 3 assumption is that all union is 3x and its simply not the case. I don't believe so either, least not from the generals who have indicated as such and use both. But there is a difference, certainly not three times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, 1jkw said: We have no union here to speak of the nurses at the local hospital are the only ones, HVAC mechanics range from 10.00 to 20.00 per hr. here as did sprinkler fitters ect. union wages for these positions are 40.00 and up depending on area. We have 3 very large road construction companies here, the workers all bitch when they aren't on a rate job because they are paid2 to 3 time their normal rate and more if they are in the Philadelphia area. Not to mention the health care and retirement of union vs. non union. The wages for a union worker are only tied to a percentage above the MW and all unions are not tied to MW in that way. I remember a good buddy of mine's dad worked in construction in TO as a brick layer. He made more money per hour working for the union however if he counted the total hours during the year or a few years, he would have done better working steady non-union. If its feast all the time, then sure he would have pulled in more, but he would not have been sitting on the sidelines during the famine times either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boered Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 On 2017-01-26 at 1:24 PM, Highmark said: How should it be handled for the people already earning above MW. If it goes up 100% over say a 5 year period (which is what is being suggested) should someone currently earning $15.00 be at $30.00 or should they only go up the exact dollar amount the MW went up? At what wage/salary point do you say that's enough you don't get a raise, I don't care if you have more education and time in with the company? Honest question that never seems to be answered by those that think the MW should be moved from current to $15.00 hr. they should get a small raise above unless market dictates they have to pay more to keep people in those jobs. If say a person is making 12 bucks right now, and min wage is going to 12, then benefits may be the deciding factor and if they are not, then if that person sees no wage increase, they may leave for an easier job for the same rate of pay. This will create a shortage for the first job originally scaled above min and drive the rate to one that can fill the jobs. Each employer will be faced with different circumstance and some may not even have to increase the wages at all. This is pretty much how it has always played out as min wage has risen. One thing, no matter where min wage lands if in fact it is brought to where it should be, it should then be adjusted to inflation every three years so wee never have to see it drop off and push people further into poverty while they work full time. Face it, when you have jobs that only give a pay raise when government demands it, and government fails to do that for ten years, it hurts people. That is a fact. now if you do not give a fuck about these people that is fine, I do, and I also do not want to see full time workers having to get government hand outs whilemthe company they work for posts record profits in the billions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 19 minutes ago, Boered said: they should get a small raise above unless market dictates they have to pay more to keep people in those jobs. If say a person is making 12 bucks right now, and min wage is going to 12, then benefits may be the deciding factor and if they are not, then if that person sees no wage increase, they may leave for an easier job for the same rate of pay. This will create a shortage for the first job originally scaled above min and drive the rate to one that can fill the jobs. Each employer will be faced with different circumstance and some may not even have to increase the wages at all. This is pretty much how it has always played out as min wage has risen. One thing, no matter where min wage lands if in fact it is brought to where it should be, it should then be adjusted to inflation every three years so wee never have to see it drop off and push people further into poverty while they work full time. Face it, when you have jobs that only give a pay raise when government demands it, and government fails to do that for ten years, it hurts people. That is a fact. now if you do not give a fuck about these people that is fine, I do, and I also do not want to see full time workers having to get government hand outs whilemthe company they work for posts record profits in the billions. Those jobs and mw pay are fine when a Co. is starting out. If they are making money they should reward those that have helped and help to raise the standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I don't think any mandatory raises should be legislated for people at or over the me. This is about establishing a minimum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boered Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, Anler said: I don't think any mandatory raises should be legislated for people at or over the me. This is about establishing a minimum... What I said was the min wage should be set at a proper living wage and then indexed to keep pace with inflation, if we see deflation it should also drop, but always be what is by todays money a living wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turf Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Minimum wage is not designed to make a living off of. It is for entry level and seasonal type jobs. Want a better wage, earn it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 52 minutes ago, Turf said: Minimum wage is not designed to make a living off of. It is for entry level and seasonal type jobs. Want a better wage, earn it. So do people who work 40 hours or more a week deserve enough to afford survival without assistance or do you like supplementing their wage with taxes on yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepr2 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, motonoggin said: So do people who work 40 hours or more a week deserve enough to afford survival without assistance or do you like supplementing their wage with taxes on yours? Free everything for all those are to lazy or stupid to make a living Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, Sleepr2 said: Free everything for all those are to lazy or stupid to make a living Social Darwinism is a barbaric ideology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, Sleepr2 said: Free everything for all those are to lazy or stupid to make a living That's the reason some are satisfied with minimum wage. They know the rest who work to be successful and get ahead will bail them out so why bother. Let them try to get by without a bailout and maybe they might be motivated for the first time in their life to do something to better themselves and their lot in life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 20 minutes ago, 02sled said: That's the reason some are satisfied with minimum wage. They know the rest who work to be successful and get ahead will bail them out so why bother. Let them try to get by without a bailout and maybe they might be motivated for the first time in their life to do something to better themselves and their lot in life Starvation is a pretty big motivator in human existence. People will do and put up with a lot of shitty things for a meal. Should be easy to find a ton of desperate workers willing to work cheap then. Behold! The wonders of capitalism! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepr2 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 46 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Social Darwinism is a barbaric ideology. A political ideology based on theft of other people's earnings is so noble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 29 minutes ago, Sleepr2 said: A political ideology based on theft of other people's earnings is so noble Yeah, capitalism sucks, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepr2 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 23 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Yeah, capitalism sucks, I agree. Lame , as usual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 6 hours ago, motonoggin said: Starvation is a pretty big motivator in human existence. People will do and put up with a lot of shitty things for a meal. Should be easy to find a ton of desperate workers willing to work cheap then. Behold! The wonders of capitalism! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 It's a wonderful motivator. Why should anyone be ENTITLED to a free ride through life because they are too damned lazy to get off their ass and work for what they want rather than expect those who are successful thanks to their own hard work to pay for the lazy bums. You want a better life, earn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, 02sled said: It's a wonderful motivator. Why should anyone be ENTITLED to a free ride through life because they are too damned lazy to get off their ass and work for what they want rather than expect those who are successful thanks to their own hard work to pay for the lazy bums. You want a better life, earn it. There's no free lunch. First real job had a slogan that said just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 4 hours ago, 02sled said: It's a wonderful motivator. Why should anyone be ENTITLED to a free ride through life because they are too damned lazy to get off their ass and work for what they want rather than expect those who are successful thanks to their own hard work to pay for the lazy bums. You want a better life, earn it. Oh, is that why people don't work? They're lazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, motonoggin said: Oh, is that why people don't work? They're lazy? For lots of them yes. We have people here who laugh at those who work for a living while they sit at home and do nothing all day on welfare. They state it publicly saying people who actually go to work each day are idiots. Then you have the multi-generational welfare families. No motivation, no ambition. Their, (here's your favourite phrase).... needs are met. The day the welfare cheques come out there is a flood of losers taking taxis to the liquor store to stock up. Now if someone is UNABLE TO WORK that is a different story and I don't have a problem helping them out. But I mean legitimately unable to work. There are too many that i.e. worked stocking shelves in a store and claim they can't work because of a bad back... well get a clerical job then where you can sit instead of lifting. You want something earn it. You don't want to earn it too bad for you. We had a Premier who wanted to implement Workfare. Do something to help the community like clean up the streets and the public parks to get your welfare cheque. Then the uproar began. First from the lazy I don't want to work and I'm entitled to a free ride through life then from the city unions that whined that the city should hire more union people to clean up the park at additional expense rather than get something in return for the $'s paid in welfare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 2 hours ago, 02sled said: For lots of them yes. We have people here who laugh at those who work for a living while they sit at home and do nothing all day on welfare. They state it publicly saying people who actually go to work each day are idiots. Then you have the multi-generational welfare families. No motivation, no ambition. Their, (here's your favourite phrase).... needs are met. The day the welfare cheques come out there is a flood of losers taking taxis to the liquor store to stock up. Now if someone is UNABLE TO WORK that is a different story and I don't have a problem helping them out. But I mean legitimately unable to work. There are too many that i.e. worked stocking shelves in a store and claim they can't work because of a bad back... well get a clerical job then where you can sit instead of lifting. You want something earn it. You don't want to earn it too bad for you. We had a Premier who wanted to implement Workfare. Do something to help the community like clean up the streets and the public parks to get your welfare cheque. Then the uproar began. First from the lazy I don't want to work and I'm entitled to a free ride through life then from the city unions that whined that the city should hire more union people to clean up the park at additional expense rather than get something in return for the $'s paid in welfare. We had the double dippers in power prior and the welfare cases skyrocketed, who would have guessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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