xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: you can't ignore the natural tendencies of all animals, there is no possible way that would ever happen. In every society, pack, den etc there are leaders and followers, winners and losers, weak and strong and nothing will ever change that Nothing ever should. Competition goes away. Advancement goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 29, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: you can't ignore the natural tendencies of all animals, there is no possible way that would ever happen. In every society, pack, den etc there are leaders and followers, winners and losers, weak and strong and nothing will ever change that I don't have a problem with someone wishing for society to be the way they want, the problem is pushing for this revolution of something not attainable because you ignore history. It is a waste of time to those gullible enough to fall for it. Then more so for those that think they have to kill or die for it and in the end they will be ruled by those that convinced them to do it in the first place. That is wrong. Edited November 29, 2016 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Nothing ever should. Competition goes away. Advancement goes away. yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Nothing ever should. Competition goes away. Advancement goes away. Competition wouldn't cease, competition to acquire wealth would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Competition wouldn't cease, competition to acquire wealth would. competition without a reward would make people stagnant. The reward even in nature is you get more than someone else whether thats food, money, better place to live or companionship it's a natural thing. Yet again you want natural instincts to be put aside for your Utopian view of a life that would be miserable for most. Except the losers they might like it but even losers like to lie cheat and steal to have more than the other losers so probably not them either. Edited November 29, 2016 by Angry ginger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: competition without a reward would make people stagnant. The reward even in nature is you get more than someone else whether thats food, money, better place to live or companionship it's a natural thing. Yet again you want natural instincts to be put aside for your Utopian view of a life that would be miserable for most. Except the losers they might like it but even losers like to lie cheat and steal to have more than the other losers so probably not them either. Becoming better as a human being and wanting for little is its own reward. Better than anything that appeals to naked ego and an effort to appear superior to others. It isn't a natural instinct to exploit others for your own gain, it's a social construct. You just think it's natural because it's the system you have been born into, it's all you've ever known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Becoming better as a human being and wanting for little is its own reward. Better than anything that appeals to naked ego and an effort to appear superior to others. It isn't a natural instinct to exploit others for your own gain, it's a social construct. You just think it's natural because it's the system you have been born into, it's all you've ever known. right cause wild animals with none of the outside noise we have in our society don't have any of the same tenancies that we have within their hierarchy to try to be the alpha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 13 minutes ago, motonoggin said: It isn't a natural instinct to exploit others for your own gain, it's a social construct. You just think it's natural because it's the system you have been born into, it's all you've ever known. It is 100% a natural instinct. As seen through every generation of man since man evolved from monkeys. It is depicted in all aspects of history and in all forms of governance. There is nothing more natural than these things. A good society attempts to incentivize the opposite behavior. Capitalism has done a brilliant job at it as seen by overall wealth and liberty growth in the past few hundred years around the world. It by no means is perfect or even where it needs to be, but that is because imperfect natural instincts of survival soak through. Communism isn't a bad thing in theory, but it is not for animals. When you can socialize instincts out of humans, we can readdress that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: right cause wild animals with none of the outside noise we have in our society don't have any of the same tenancies that we have within their hierarchy to try to be the alpha. Wild animals have to deal with scarcity of resources. If they aren't completely sociopathic in their quest to survive, they may die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Wild animals have to deal with scarcity of resources. If they aren't completely sociopathic in their quest to survive, they may die. Will not the continuance of civilization progression deal with the same thing? Territory, food, water, mates, etc are all the same, but they are wrapped in different packages. All the same. Edited November 29, 2016 by xtralettucetomatoe580 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Will not the continuance of civilization progression deal with the same thing? Territory, food, water, mates, etc are all the same, but they are wrapped in different packages. All the same. Of course, but we are self aware and conscious of our actions. Otherwise we'd still be hunting and gathering and clubbing our mates over the head and raping them like we used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Of course, but we are self aware and conscious of our actions. Otherwise we'd still be hunting and gathering and clubbing our mates over the head and raping them like we used to. Conscious but not separate from our instincts IMO. And still plenty of those primal instincts like rape unfortunately. BTW thanks for the good conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Glad we kept it civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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