Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Anler said: So did mine. My ancestors were some of the first settlers here and have fought in every war this country has been in. Your ancestors most likely participated in the slave trade so pay up! Fucking warmonger offspring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: Yes. There has been decades of discrimination in the housing and employment sectors that has negatively affected black Americans. "in the past few decades, black wealth has actually dropped by half. Adjusted for inflation, the wealth of white families rose an average of 33% in the same time period. The number of households that control over $10 million (most of them white) shot up 856%." https://www.fastcompany.com/90292185/the-racial-wealth-gap-is-worse-than-it-was-35-years-ago The fact that many black families no longer include 2 parents has a lot to do with those numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Carlos Danger said: Over lay the LBJ "Great Society" on that top chart and you can see the effect government programs have had on the black community. Don't have to overlay it. Just look at about 1965. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 The USA has actually been paying reparations to blacks for many years. If you add up all the welfare, section 8 housing, Medicaid ( welfare medical ) Snap Food Stamps, WIC ( women Infant Children ) payments to blacks, it would total in the Billions, if not TRILLIONS!! So, in effect the USA has been paying reparations to blacks for MANY YEARS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 As I've stated for a long time...…………...black America keeps at our fukken throats. 24/7, 365 we face the power and growing ferocity of blacks. I maintain unequivocally, blacks are white America's worst nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Highmark said: There are plenty of statistics that back it up. If you look at crime, education and income they all mirror 2 parent households by race. In the AA community 2 parent households took a dive after the great society programs and Roe decision. Follow 3 simple things and you have over 90% chance of staying out of poverty. Finish high school, don't get pregnant before you are married and have a full time job. Pretty sure you and I discussed this before. Prior to the great society and Roe less than 20% of AA kids were born into single parent households, now its getting close to 80%. Like usual, there is common ground we can certainly agree on here. I mean, children born into 2 parent households are going to tend to do better. Also, there are things that good advice for everyone so I obviously agree on the bold. But I don't think the legislation / supreme court decisions - I don't see the link to how they would have contributed, specifically with a disproportionate impact based on skin color. There are studies out there that show that even when blacks do "all the right things" and attain a bachelor's degree, they are paid on par with whites having only an associates degree. I certainly hope you're not treading down the path of "its there own fault". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: Like usual, there is common ground we can certainly agree on here. I mean, children born into 2 parent households are going to tend to do better. Also, there are things that good advice for everyone so I obviously agree on the bold. But I don't think the legislation / supreme court decisions - I don't see the link to how they would have contributed, specifically with a disproportionate impact based on skin color. There are studies out there that show that even when blacks do "all the right things" and attain a bachelor's degree, they are paid on par with whites having only an associates degree. I certainly hope you're not treading down the path of "its there own fault". Not saying you are wrong but I'd love to see links to that study and see the whole data. Obviously no different than equal pay for women when those statistics are looked at in a more detailed apples to apples comparison often women make more. As more welfare programs became available it became less of a driving force for parents to remain together and provide on their own for their family. Fathers didn't feel as compelled to stick around. As you can see by the chart almost all races were impacted but I think it did impact the AA community a bit more as their line grows a bit steeper than other races. No this isn't the only cause there are many but it was significant. I think drug use growing in the 60's also was a great contributing factor. Roe v Wade then just added to fathers not taking responsibility for their family or children. Hey she can have an abortion now I'm not taking care of that kid. Edited March 21, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Highmark said: Not saying you are wrong but I'd love to see links to that study and see the whole data. Obviously no different than equal pay for women when those statistics are looked at in a more detailed apples to apples comparison often women make more. As more welfare programs became available it became less of a driving force for parents to remain together and provide on their own for their family. Fathers didn't feel as compelled to stick around. As you can see by the chart almost all races were impacted but I think it did impact the AA community a bit more as their line grows a bit steeper than other races. No this isn't the only cause there are many but it was significant. I think drug use growing in the 60's also was a great contributing factor. Roe v Wade then just added to fathers not taking responsibility for their family or children. Hey she can have an abortion now I'm not taking care of that kid. The data comes from the Census Bureau Survey of Income and Program Participation (raw data should be available somehow from here: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/sipp/data/datasets.html) The analysis of that data was done in two studies the first using data from 2011 and the second from 2014. Links to those can be found here: https://d.pr/f/ato4pN and http://www.insightcced.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Umbrellas_Dont_Make_It_Rain_Final.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: The data comes from the Census Bureau Survey of Income and Program Participation (raw data should be available somehow from here: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/sipp/data/datasets.html) The analysis of that data was done in two studies the first using data from 2011 and the second from 2014. Links to those can be found here: https://d.pr/f/ato4pN and http://www.insightcced.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Umbrellas_Dont_Make_It_Rain_Final.pdf Well there is so many holes in that data I wouldn't know where to begin. Again not claiming there isn't some disparities but you have to compare actual fields not this broad of view. First and foremost wealth is not income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Well there is so many holes in that data I wouldn't know where to begin. Again not claiming there isn't some disparities but you have to compare actual fields not this broad of view. First and foremost wealth is not income. On the bold, agreed and actually forgot to include this chart showing the disparity between income and wealth between blacks and whites: "Income also fails to explain dramatic racial wealth disparities. Black and white families with similar incomes have vastly different wealth. For instance, the typical black family in the poorest 20 percent of the income distribution—those with incomes under $18,480 annually has virtually no wealth, while the equivalent white family holds nearly $15,000 in wealth (Figure 4). In fact, those same white families at the lowest end of the income distribution have a higher median wealth than middle-income blacks whose incomes ranged between $36,000 and $54,000. This means that the $15,000 median wealth associated with low-income whites provides greater capacity to invest in education, a small business, a house or retirement savings than the $100 afforded to low-income blacks.14 " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: On the bold, agreed and actually forgot to include this chart showing the disparity between income and wealth between blacks and whites: "Income also fails to explain dramatic racial wealth disparities. Black and white families with similar incomes have vastly different wealth. For instance, the typical black family in the poorest 20 percent of the income distribution—those with incomes under $18,480 annually has virtually no wealth, while the equivalent white family holds nearly $15,000 in wealth (Figure 4). In fact, those same white families at the lowest end of the income distribution have a higher median wealth than middle-income blacks whose incomes ranged between $36,000 and $54,000. This means that the $15,000 median wealth associated with low-income whites provides greater capacity to invest in education, a small business, a house or retirement savings than the $100 afforded to low-income blacks.14 " Again....plenty to extract from that. People with the same income but different wealth can have a variety of reasons from spending habits to savings to inheritance. This is not a complete indication of a racist society that caused it. If you and I start from scratch earn the exact same amount over the next 40 years and I end up with a net wealth of $1 million and you are $1 million in the hole whose fault is it? Edited March 21, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Highmark said: Again....plenty to extract from that. People with the same income but different wealth can have a variety of reasons from spending habits to savings to inheritance. This is not a complete indication of a racist society that caused it. If you and I start from scratch earn the exact same amount over the next 40 years and I end up with a net wealth of $1 million and you are $1 million in the hole whose fault is it? Good point. Also just because two people share the same degree hardly makes them worth the same, esp in careers that separate the men from the boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, ArcticCrusher said: Good point. Also just because two people share the same degree hardly makes them worth the same, esp in careers that separate the men from the boys. Absolutely and without question and I would admit maybe race could play some role there however if you are really good at your job few people are going to care what color/sex/sexual orientation you are. Good bosses anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 hour ago, steve from amherst said: Fucking warmonger offspring I know right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Absolutely and without question and I would admit maybe race could play some role there however if you are really good at your job few people are going to care what color/sex/sexual orientation you are. Good bosses anyway. We go through many engineers during interviews cause quite frankly most would not last very long in this field. Race/color/sex or if they are a fag does not even register. After about 4 years if I can't send them to another country by themselves and take care of their own projects, they are useless to me. The key is identifying those with the potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Highmark said: Again....plenty to extract from that. People with the same income but different wealth can have a variety of reasons from spending habits to savings to inheritance. This is not a complete indication of a racist society that caused it. If you and I start from scratch earn the exact same amount over the next 40 years and I end up with a net wealth of $1 million and you are $1 million in the hole whose fault is it? Comparing one individual to another individual is no way to go about establishing data that would have any worth in terms of racial wealth inequality at a societal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, ArcticCrusher said: We go through many engineers during interviews cause quite frankly most would not last very long in this field. Race/color/sex or if they are a fag does not even register. After about 4 years if I can't send them to another country by themselves and take care of their own projects, they are useless to me. The key is identifying those with the potential. Absolutely. No question no matter what field you are hiring there is an art to picking good people. Can make or break a company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: Comparing one individual to another individual is no way to go about establishing data that would have any worth in terms of racial wealth inequality at a societal level. Valid point but neither is data so broad it doesn't take into account factors that may cause the discrepancies. Why do young childless men make less? Probably because its not a accurate comparison as more childless women are likely college educated at that age. Edited March 21, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Valid point but neither is data so broad it doesn't take into account factors that may cause the discrepancies. I’ll leave the battle of the sexes to another thread. One thing I wanted to add though is the value of using data from an entire race should eliminate those individual spending/investing choice proclivities. Sure you’d still have inheritance as a major contributing factor but that’s due to their parents having less wealth — parents who were also black generally speaking. I don’t know what should be done but study after study says that it isn’t fixing itself and may actually be getting worse. I’m fine with Liz wanting to at least talk about it and start the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: I’ll leave the battle of the sexes to another thread. One thing I wanted to add though is the value of using data from an entire race should eliminate those individual spending/investing choice proclivities. Sure you’d still have inheritance as a major contributing factor but that’s due to their parents having less wealth — parents who were also black generally speaking. I don’t know what should be done but study after study says that it isn’t fixing itself and may actually be getting worse. I’m fine with Liz wanting to at least talk about it and start the discussion. No it doesn't. The simple fact that AA's in general have a much higher divorce rate and out of wedlock children can play into this as well. Just making a point with the sex/wage data. Edited March 21, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 24 minutes ago, Highmark said: No it doesn't. The simple fact that AA's in general have a much higher divorce rate and out of wedlock children can play into this as well. Just making a point with the sex/wage data. None of those things, wealth, divorce rate, births of babies to unmarried mothers — none of that is an intrinsic defect based on skin color. Therefore it’s all systemic. And if it’s systemic it can be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: None of those things, wealth, divorce rate, births of babies to unmarried mothers — none of that is an intrinsic defect based on skin color. Therefore it’s all systemic. And if it’s systemic it can be corrected. I wouldn't totally agree when the statistics show otherwise but either way is it the govt's responsibility to fix? Edited March 21, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 39 minutes ago, Highmark said: I wouldn't totally agree when the statistics show otherwise but either way is it the govt's responsibility to fix? No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Highmark said: I wouldn't totally agree when the statistics show otherwise but either way is it the govt's responsibility to fix? A. Correlation doesn't equal causation. B. Responsibility? That's a subjective question but myself and others would argue yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted March 21, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 21, 2019 Just now, XC.Morrison said: A. Correlation doesn't equal causation. B. Responsibility? That's a subjective question but myself and others would argue yes. A. It can B. Did the govt cause this? I'd say no so why would they be responsible to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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