Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 40 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well, as long as humans who think like you are around, you aren't wrong... Fuck, I don't know, maybe we should find out... Worse thing that happens is workers make more money and debt is no longer propping up the economy. Oh, not sounding so fucking smart about it now are you. No the worse thing is inflation skyrockets and nobody has anymore savings than before because there was no magical economic multiplier and as pricing went up buying power and debt didn't change. Fuck I think I like your communism idea better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Socialism bad because it will *checks notes* turn into capitalism Your rhetoric makes zero sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Oh, not sounding so fucking smart about it now are you. No the worse thing is inflation skyrockets and nobody has anymore savings than before because there was no magical economic multiplier and as pricing went up buying power and debt didn't change. Fuck I think I like your communism idea better. So you'd rather spend someone else's money, future generations money, to prop up the economy over paying workers better so we didn't have to use credit as a crutch? If this isn't the quintessential description of the entitled capitalists mentality, I don't know what is. Edited January 9, 2019 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, motonoggin said: So you'd rather spend someone else's money, future generations money, to prop up the economy over paying workers better so we didn't have to use credit as a crutch? If this isn't the quintessential description of the entitled capitaliststs mentality, I don't know what is. Artificially increasing wages will not necessarily reduce debt. Thought I made my point clear on that. For the elenentybillionth time. I want MASSIVE REDUCTIONS IN GOVT SPENDING AT ALL LEVELS. I want a balanced budget amendment that doesn't involve super high taxes to achieve it. I want to remove every military base anywhere outside our country unless they make it profitable for us to be there. I want to cut the military budget in half. I think we need a fair progressive tax system. I OK with the wealthy paying more I'm just sick and fucking tired of retards saying they don't pay their fair share when the facts completely contradict that. I'd like to see certain non profits be able to be donated to where it comes directly off your tax bill instead of just reducing it. I'd even advocate the same for certain portions of payroll on some smart sliding scale. I'd like to focus on American's first and foremost and help people where they are by smart trade agreements. That doesn't mean eliminate legal immigration just be smart about it. After all we can't take just the most talented from 3rd world countries as we just hurt them more. After all why do we need so many people but nobody else does? Until we get our act together (if that's even possible) then I'm not going to just hand over my money to the govt so they can piss it away to whatever group they feel is most deserving. Edited January 9, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Artificially increasing wages will not necessarily reduce debt. Thought I made my point clear on that. For the elenentybillionth time. I want MASSIVE REDUCTIONS IN GOVT SPENDING AT ALL LEVELS. I want a balanced budget amendment that doesn't involve super high taxes to achieve it. I want to remove every military base anywhere outside our country unless they make it profitable for us to be there. I want to cut the military budget in half. I think we need a fair progressive tax system. I OK with the wealthy paying more I'm just sick and fucking tired of retards saying they don't pay their fair share when the facts completely contradict that. I'd like to see certain non profits be able to be donated to where it comes directly off your tax bill instead of just reducing it. I'd even advocate the same for certain portions of payroll on some smart sliding scale. I'd like to focus on American's first and foremost and help people where they are by smart trade agreements. That doesn't mean eliminate legal immigration just be smart about it. After all we can't take just the most talented from 3rd world countries as we just hurt them more. After all why do we need so many people but nobody else does? Until we get our act together (if that's even possible) then I'm not going to just hand over my money to the govt so they can piss it away to whatever group they feel is most deserving. Smh...what a load of bullshit regurgitated talking points. We've been artificially increasing aggregate demand through public and private debt instruments, precisely because wages have been kept artificially low. You want to cut all this debt spending yet don't have a plan to replace that reduction of aggregate demand anywhere else. You're essentially asking for a deflationary disaster. And you're completely, willfully, ignorant of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Smh...what a load of bullshit regurgitated talking points. We've been artificially increasing aggregate demand through public and private debt instruments, precisely because wages have been kept artificially low. You want to cut all this debt spending yet don't have a plan to replace that reduction of aggregate demand anywhere else. You're essentially asking for a deflationary disaster. And you're completely, willfully, ignorant of it. Bullshit. The AD is replaced because the money is in the hands of the people not the govt. Whatever is returned to the people remains in the economy. Edited January 9, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Bullshit. The AD is replaced because the money is in the hands of the people not the govt. No it isn't. We spend way more than we collect, that's why the national debt continues to rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No it isn't. We spend way more than we collect, that's why the national debt continues to rise. Well like I've said we shouldn't be. The impact of that would be felt no matter what rather taxing more or spending less. Your just moving money from one coffer to the other and I want to take power away from the politicians not give them more. The debt runs about 3-5% of GDP. There will be some short term pain even when done incrementally but it will be minimum and we cannot continue down the path we are. Done over 5-8 years we would be looking impacting GDP about a 1% or less per year. So a year with 3% growth is now 2%. A -2% recession is now a -3% recession. I think we can handle that. Edited January 9, 2019 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Highmark said: Oh, not sounding so fucking smart about it now are you. No the worse thing is inflation skyrockets and nobody has anymore savings than before because there was no magical economic multiplier and as pricing went up buying power and debt didn't change. Fuck I think I like your communism idea better. You left out the part were we become even less competitive on the world stage. And consumers still by imported shit so our trade defecit grows even more. An increase to the trade defecit must be a bad thing as there were prolly 8 threads about it going up under Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: Socialism bad because it will *checks notes* turn into capitalism That's the most accurate thing you have said in this thread. Yes even in a socialist or communist society capitalism prevails. It will be in the form of corruption, but it will still be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 47 minutes ago, Highmark said: Well like I've said we shouldn't be. The impact of that would be felt no matter what rather taxing more or spending less. Your just moving money from one coffer to the other. Well, if you'd like to save capitalism for a while -which personally I don't, but anyway - here's how: 1) Institute policies that put upward pressure on wages. Raising the minimum wage could be among those policies. This will increase wages share of aggregate demand. 2)Raise interest rates to discourage excessive borrowing. This will reduce private credit's share of aggregate demand. 3) Reduce state spending to receipts only until some sort of stimulus is required or desired. This will reduce government spending's share of aggregate demand. If all these policies are implemented properly, we could move away from this crazy debt bubble we're in. The trouble is that capitalism really applies no incentive to do any of that through 'natural' market forces. This current arrangement won't last, I think we can all see that. So you see, there really is no other choice. Wages must go up for the bottom 90% or the experiment of capitalism fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 While I still disagree with some of that post it might be the most logical thing you've written on the topic to date Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyAspirated Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 4 hours ago, motonoggin said: From each, to each is the ultimate goal. You know the deal. Idk, man, seems kinda irresponsible to try and learn this stuff secondhand. Maybe you could try reading some Bakunin, Marx/Engels, Stirner, Kropotkin, etc. I don't teach. That begs the question of why you can't/won't teach a system that you believe in. That itself, makes your promotion of the ideal suspect. People want to know how they will get an improved reaping of rewards from what is reaped at present. And you can't explain it? Pass. Neal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyAspirated Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 2 hours ago, motonoggin said: Socialism bad because it will *checks notes* turn into capitalism Perhaps it's a bad idea because it can't motivate people to better their situation as capitalism can. Those ideals are ingrained into the human condition, trying to foist a system that ignores those qualities when they quite clearly exist doesn't seem logical. Neal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted January 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said: Perhaps it's a bad idea because it can't motivate people to better their situation as capitalism can. Those ideals are ingrained into the human condition, trying to foist a system that ignores those qualities when they quite clearly exist doesn't seem logical. Neal It doesn't seem logical because it isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 hours ago, motonoggin said: Well, we'd all have to stop worrying about how much someone else 'got' and instead worry about how we can best improve ourselves as people. Already doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 16 minutes ago, SSFB said: Already doing that. Well...I think when he stated "people" it was more of a "for the greater good" thing. I think yours was more in the way of improve yourself from an individual standpoint. I believe your thought is more correct...but both can be done. How about this...stop feeding the hate for the people that have more (of anything) and worry more about what we have ourselves? Mhmmm.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 33 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Well...I think when he stated "people" it was more of a "for the greater good" thing. I think yours was more in the way of improve yourself from an individual standpoint. I believe your thought is more correct...but both can be done. How about this...stop feeding the hate for the people that have more (of anything) and worry more about what we have ourselves? Mhmmm.. If everyone improved themself then society would look pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, SSFB said: If everyone improved themself then society would look pretty good. Agreed! Or, now hear me out here.......we could label everyone, group together and hate the other groups for one thing or another and plaster it all over social media. Yeah...let's do that instead! 'Murica! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Zambroski said: Well...I think when he stated "people" it was more of a "for the greater good" thing. I think yours was more in the way of improve yourself from an individual standpoint. I believe your thought is more correct...but both can be done. How about this...stop feeding the hate for the people that have more (of anything) and worry more about what we have ourselves? Mhmmm.. You can always live on love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 hours ago, NaturallyAspirated said: That begs the question of why you can't/won't teach a system that you believe in. That itself, makes your promotion of the ideal suspect. People want to know how they will get an improved reaping of rewards from what is reaped at present. And you can't explain it? Pass. Neal I don't exactly promote it. I say that it will likely replace capitalism, whose days are clealry numbered. 5 hours ago, NaturallyAspirated said: Perhaps it's a bad idea because it can't motivate people to better their situation as capitalism can. Those ideals are ingrained into the human condition, trying to foist a system that ignores those qualities when they quite clearly exist doesn't seem logical. Neal Using the threat of starvation if one doesn't produce labor that can be exploited isn't exactly the highest form of motivating greater human achievements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, motonoggin said: I don't exactly promote it. I say that it will likely replace capitalism, whose days are clealry numbered. Using the threat of starvation if one doesn't produce labor that can be exploited isn't exactly the highest form of motivating greater human achievements. Did you exploit the labor of others? Who or what is the measuring line of what is exploitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Monopsony is always exploitative. Capital relies upon monopsony to suppress wages. This is a natural consequence of how the mechanisms of capitalism work. It's obviously quite unsustainable, and therefore destined for failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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