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firecatguy

Looking for a helmet

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The wife needs a new bucket, I have a bv2s and love it but she refuses to wear it she does not like the claustrophobic feeling she gets.. I think rather than spend 200 on a cheap shitter I'd rather spend a little extra and get her a good one but dont know what.. I was thinking a bell one but ran into a guy w one amd he did not have glowing reviews.. How about the ckx tranz?

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We have the CKX Tranz (Mad Bee) modulars and no issues. The wife took out her breath guard and I run with mine in. They are sealed pretty good even at higher speeds

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A dual sport gives you a better field of vision lessential confined. That's my preferred choice.

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Tranz?  Sounds like something Killer would be into.....

 

Snell rated..... that's all that matters if you value your head.  :) 

Everyone laughs at my ol' HJC, but never cold in it, and still has the original heated visor (20 years)..... been through a few cords though.  Will replace it with another. 

 

Edited by Puzzleboy

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6 hours ago, Puzzleboy said:

Tranz?  Sounds like something Killer would be into.....

 

Snell rated..... that's all that matters if you value your head.  :) 

Everyone laughs at my ol' HJC, but never cold in it, and still has the original heated visor (20 years)..... been through a few cords though.  Will replace it with another. 

 

If you truly value your head, the safety of a 20 year old helmet (even a Snell rated one) can be called into question. 

 

BTW  - I hate to break it to you,  but it's not your old HJC that everyone is laughing at. 

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We are using the CKK Titan and bought the electric heat visor as well.  So far so good.

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Personally, find it disturbing virtually none are Snell Rated any more. Guess with so many buying strictly on price thats what your gonna see.  While recently looking to buy a new lid, tried on three identical helmets from the same mfg (HJC CL17), no two fit anywhere close to the same. If there is indeed any semblance of quality control in a safety item like that, how could that be possible? 

Perhaps I'm overthinking it but while wearing a Snell rated helmet a few years back, took a spill that saw me knocked unconscious. Couple peeps have said to me, helmet didn't do it's job, my take, if my melon took that much of a hit in a good helmet, would I have survived wearing a lesser one? 

Edited by ZRSledhead
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Unless things have changed, the protocol was if you were in an open type of vehicle i.e. bike or sled, all that was required was a DOT helmet, if you were in a vehicle with a roll bar where your head was in close contact with the roll cage, Snell was a must to pass safety. But I am guessing any motocross racers likely run Snell though...

Not suggesting Snell is not better, but given that safety requirement, I can see why you see more DOT helmets in our market vs. Snell.

I also had an old HJC full face that was the first snowmobile helmet I bought, it was Snell with a heated shield, price was around $125.00, it was a great helmet, but like all things, out with the old and in with the new.....I wanted a modular for the simplicity of the trail side stops that was more frequent back than....

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43 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Unless things have changed, the protocol was if you were in an open type of vehicle i.e. bike or sled, all that was required was a DOT helmet, if you were in a vehicle with a roll bar where your head was in close contact with the roll cage, Snell was a must to pass safety. But I am guessing any motocross racers likely run Snell though...

Not suggesting Snell is not better, but given that safety requirement, I can see why you see more DOT helmets in our market vs. Snell.

I also had an old HJC full face that was the first snowmobile helmet I bought, it was Snell with a heated shield, price was around $125.00, it was a great helmet, but like all things, out with the old and in with the new.....I wanted a modular for the simplicity of the trail side stops that was more frequent back than....

Any sanctioned racing application, whether a roll bar comes into play or not, a Snell rated helmet must be used, IIRC? Snell rated, and maybe even ECE now, are required in Moto X racing. Having/using just a DOT helmet will not allow you to race in any sanctioned event. I my current HJC is Snell rated and I am a little more comfortable knowing that, but I have been told/read, the most important factor when choosing a helmet is proper fit.

I have never been a fan of modulars, and you will never find one Snell or ECE rated, and there is a reason for that. Unless things have changed dramatically? 

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Interesting read below.

My sled helmet has a Snell Rating, my road race helmet is Snell SA.

 

 

What are the differences between the SA and M standards?

The Snell Memorial Foundation SA standard was designed for competitive auto racing while the M standard was for motorcycling and other motorsports. There are three major differences between them:

  1. SA standard requires pass a flammability test while the M standards do not. Generally speaking, SA and SAH helmets will have a Nomex lining and a yellow Nomex chin strap.
  2. SA standard allows for a narrower visual field than the M standard (Some SA certified helmets may not be legal for street motorcycle use).
  3. SA standards include a rollbar multi-impact test while the M standard does not.

Open Face vs Closed Face

Open face helmets are preferred in cars with air bags. This is because the airbag inflates into the same space as the chin/face protection on a closed face helmet, which pushes the occupant’s head up and back (ouch!) and lessens the effectiveness of the airbag. Closed face helps are preferred in cars without airbags due to the additional impact protection they provide.

Changes to Snell 2015 SA helmet standards

Snell 2015 SA helmets are now available in the marketplace (it was a slow start, but they are here now). We strongly recommend updating your helmet to a 2015 due to two significant changes that are incorporated in the Snell 2015 SA standards:

1) Head-and-Neck Restraint (HANS) compatibility across all helmets. This comes in the form of the pre-installed M6 hardware that was previously required only on helmets with a Snell/FIA rating (formerly known as the SAH-rating).

2) New impact testing is being used that mimics FIA-testing. Low velocity testing is now required; as is protection against lower impact points, such as strikes against window frames and other lower structures.

Can I use a DOT helmet?

NO.  The DOT standard  (meaning United States Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #218) is considered to be lesser than current Snell Memorial Foundation standards from both functional and compliance perspectives. With respect to function, the DOT standard was developed in 1972 and remains virtually unchanged except for a minor revision to the testing process in 1988; whereas the Snell standard is revised every 5 years and is continually evolving based on new information on how to prevent brain injuries. For example, the latest 2015 Snell standard has significant improvements in low-velocity impact protection and low-lateral impact protection which DOT does not require.

More important, however, is the issue of compliance with the certification standard. Snell independently tests samples of each and every helmet design before providing certification, and then performs ongoing spot-checks of each helmet design throughout its production life. Manufacturers who use the ECE R22-05 standard must also submit their helmets to an independent third-party for similar testing. But with DOT, there is no third-party verification or testing requirements, meaning that companies certify their own helmets. BUT DO THEY?  NHTSA conducts random tests on about 40 sample helmets every year for compliance.  During the years 2004-2008, NHTSA found 28% of so-called DOT-approved helmets failed performance testing.  This is an unacceptable failure rate.

Even without knowing you, we are certain you are worth the cost of a helmet that will actually protect you when you need it.

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Irv, good point on modulars, searched but never found one with anything above DOT rating.  

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4 hours ago, irv said:

Any sanctioned racing application, whether a roll bar comes into play or not, a Snell rated helmet must be used, IIRC? Snell rated, and maybe even ECE now, are required in Moto X racing. Having/using just a DOT helmet will not allow you to race in any sanctioned event. I my current HJC is Snell rated and I am a little more comfortable knowing that, but I have been told/read, the most important factor when choosing a helmet is proper fit.

I have never been a fan of modulars, and you will never find one Snell or ECE rated, and there is a reason for that. Unless things have changed dramatically? 

I have no personal experience with Moto racing, but I have no doubt on the Snell expectations

The few types of racing I have done, DOT was strictly forbidden.

I am fairly certain Snell has various ratings.

12 minutes ago, ZRSledhead said:

Interesting read below.

My sled helmet has a Snell Rating, my road race helmet is Snell SA.

 

 

What are the differences between the SA and M standards?

The Snell Memorial Foundation SA standard was designed for competitive auto racing while the M standard was for motorcycling and other motorsports. There are three major differences between them:

  1. SA standard requires pass a flammability test while the M standards do not. Generally speaking, SA and SAH helmets will have a Nomex lining and a yellow Nomex chin strap.
  2. SA standard allows for a narrower visual field than the M standard (Some SA certified helmets may not be legal for street motorcycle use).
  3. SA standards include a rollbar multi-impact test while the M standard does not.

Open Face vs Closed Face

Open face helmets are preferred in cars with air bags. This is because the airbag inflates into the same space as the chin/face protection on a closed face helmet, which pushes the occupant’s head up and back (ouch!) and lessens the effectiveness of the airbag. Closed face helps are preferred in cars without airbags due to the additional impact protection they provide.

Changes to Snell 2015 SA helmet standards

Snell 2015 SA helmets are now available in the marketplace (it was a slow start, but they are here now). We strongly recommend updating your helmet to a 2015 due to two significant changes that are incorporated in the Snell 2015 SA standards:

1) Head-and-Neck Restraint (HANS) compatibility across all helmets. This comes in the form of the pre-installed M6 hardware that was previously required only on helmets with a Snell/FIA rating (formerly known as the SAH-rating).

2) New impact testing is being used that mimics FIA-testing. Low velocity testing is now required; as is protection against lower impact points, such as strikes against window frames and other lower structures.

Can I use a DOT helmet?

NO.  The DOT standard  (meaning United States Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #218) is considered to be lesser than current Snell Memorial Foundation standards from both functional and compliance perspectives. With respect to function, the DOT standard was developed in 1972 and remains virtually unchanged except for a minor revision to the testing process in 1988; whereas the Snell standard is revised every 5 years and is continually evolving based on new information on how to prevent brain injuries. For example, the latest 2015 Snell standard has significant improvements in low-velocity impact protection and low-lateral impact protection which DOT does not require.

More important, however, is the issue of compliance with the certification standard. Snell independently tests samples of each and every helmet design before providing certification, and then performs ongoing spot-checks of each helmet design throughout its production life. Manufacturers who use the ECE R22-05 standard must also submit their helmets to an independent third-party for similar testing. But with DOT, there is no third-party verification or testing requirements, meaning that companies certify their own helmets. BUT DO THEY?  NHTSA conducts random tests on about 40 sample helmets every year for compliance.  During the years 2004-2008, NHTSA found 28% of so-called DOT-approved helmets failed performance testing.  This is an unacceptable failure rate.

Even without knowing you, we are certain you are worth the cost of a helmet that will actually protect you when you need it.

Just checked mine and it is Snell SA2010....but likely outdated with the current 2015 out.

The HANS  device is becoming more and more enforced as a mandatory safety device.....if not already, it will not be long until it is across the field.....pockets just need to get deeper & deeper to stay in the game....

The DOT testing and fail rates are something to take note of....but I guess it also depends on who was publishing that article...

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Snell certified is better than DOT certified but usually a Snell is also DOT (standards exceeded DOT).  New standard is out of Europe called ECE.  It's the highest in standards and has been for years.

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ECE is indeed the new benchmark.  I was always told that the Snell safety testing was geared more towards auto racing than any other motorsports anyways. 

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Lots of quality full-face helmets are.  (CL-17s are).  Seems odd they would fit differently.... just as odd that you would try on the same helmet in the same size.  Lol

Lots of helmets are Snell rated, but they are tough tests to pass.  MUCH higher standards than most DsOT..  And there is a cost incurred to the manufacturer. 

But the modulars all seem to fail the testing.  Not  exactly confidence inspiring in a product you wear for one reason.  (And to keep your ears warm.)

 

 

18 hours ago, ZRSledhead said:

Personally, find it disturbing virtually none are Snell Rated any more. Guess with so many buying strictly on price thats what your gonna see.  While recently looking to buy a new lid, tried on three identical helmets from the same mfg (HJC CL17), no two fit anywhere close to the same. If there is indeed any semblance of quality control in a safety item like that, how could that be possible? 

Perhaps I'm overthinking it but while wearing a Snell rated helmet a few years back, took a spill that saw me knocked unconscious. Couple peeps have said to me, helmet didn't do it's job, my take, if my melon took that much of a hit in a good helmet, would I have survived wearing a lesser one? 

Edited by Puzzleboy

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Then why do bike helmets and sled helmets have Snell ratings?   The only person who would tell you that, is a guy in a store trying to sell you a DOT-only helmet.  So you think Snell ratings are "geared more to auto racing...."  (incorrect),  yet somehow you know that ECE is the "new benchmark".  Benchmark for what? 

ECE is an obligatory Euro government standard and is the equivalent of our DOT requirements.   Snell is a non-profit and optional U.S. standard.  In any case, their standards are both higher than most DsOT.  MotoGP certifies ECE, and so does F1.  That doesn't mean a Snell helmet won't pass their standards, as both are primarily Euro racing leagues.  Every cert costs money. 

Either way..... buying a DOT-only helmet to protect your head, is questionable.  But then, if you've made that choice, what's inside the helmet might not be worth protecting....

I'm guessing Pete has had a few crashes where he bumped his head in a DOT-only helmet. 

 

6 hours ago, Pete Z said:

ECE is indeed the new benchmark.  I was always told that the Snell safety testing was geared more towards auto racing than any other motorsports anyways. 

Edited by Puzzleboy

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There are more DOT-only helmets on the market for one reason.  They're cheaper to manufacture, and cheaper to buy.  For the manufacturer to engineer a helmet that can pass Snell, they will have to spend a lot more money, and sell it for a lot more money.  There was a time when around half the helmets Royal sold were Snell rated.  Now, maybe 10% are. 

Most race bodies will not let you race without a Snell helmet and/or ECE.  That should tell you something. 

 

16 hours ago, Stoney said:

Unless things have changed, the protocol was if you were in an open type of vehicle i.e. bike or sled, all that was required was a DOT helmet, if you were in a vehicle with a roll bar where your head was in close contact with the roll cage, Snell was a must to pass safety. But I am guessing any motocross racers likely run Snell though...

Not suggesting Snell is not better, but given that safety requirement, I can see why you see more DOT helmets in our market vs. Snell.

I also had an old HJC full face that was the first snowmobile helmet I bought, it was Snell with a heated shield, price was around $125.00, it was a great helmet, but like all things, out with the old and in with the new.....I wanted a modular for the simplicity of the trail side stops that was more frequent back than....

Edited by Puzzleboy

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5 hours ago, Puzzleboy said:

Lots of quality full-face helmets are.  (CL-17s are).  Seems odd they would fit differently.... just as odd that you would try on the same helmet in the same size.  Lol

Lots of helmets are Snell rated, but they are tough tests to pass.  MUCH higher standards than most DsOT..  And there is a cost incurred to the manufacturer. 

But the modulars all seem to fail the testing.  Not  exactly confidence inspiring in a product you wear for one reason.  (And to keep your ears warm.)

 

 

I currently own 3 HJC helmets, all of which are XL and fit me correctly, my snow version CL14 is getting long in the tooth, time to replace.   Strolled into  Royal Dist, while they don't carry  CL17 in the snow version (yes HJC makes it / no I didn't care it would cost me most to add elec shield) I walked over to the motorcycle section and pulled an XL off the shelf. Not a chance that was going over my melon, neither was a 2X, the 3X did but was brutally tight above my brow, this is what led me to try two more 3X of the exact same model. No two fit anywhere close to the other, none fit me correctly. While the salesperson agreed all three did look / fit differently on my head, she decided I must be wrong about my current HJC helmets all being XL's. If they made electric shields for a higher end helmet like a Shoe or similar, would not blink at the cost. No blank check / baller sledding budget here, just willing to spend what it takes to be safer.

If you've noticed, some helmets loose the Snell Rating in larger sizes, perhaps they are no longer making different shell sizes but are instead cutting down on the interior padding to fit larger heads.

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Most helmets are made with Chinese precision

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6 hours ago, Puzzleboy said:

There are more DOT-only helmets on the market for one reason.  They're cheaper to manufacture, and cheaper to buy.  For the manufacturer to engineer a helmet that can pass Snell, they will have to spend a lot more money, and sell it for a lot more money.  There was a time when around half the helmets Royal sold were Snell rated.  Now, maybe 10% are. 

Most race bodies will not let you race without a Snell helmet and/or ECE.  That should tell you something. 

 

My point was that the majority of the people buying these cost effective DOT helmets are snowmobilers and folks that ride motor cycles, all they are required to have is a DOT, it is their choice to step it up to a higher safety rated helmet but not a requirement.

If you are part of a sanctioned race event, DOT will not get you past tech..

So, as a retailer, I am thinking they are going to mostly stock the DOT because they are for sure more cost effective and have a larger audience that are looking for them. 

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12 hours ago, Puzzleboy said:

Then why do bike helmets and sled helmets have Snell ratings?   The only person who would tell you that, is a guy in a store trying to sell you a DOT-only helmet.  So you think Snell ratings are "geared more to auto racing...."  (incorrect),  yet somehow you know that ECE is the "new benchmark".  Benchmark for what? 

ECE is an obligatory Euro government standard and is the equivalent of our DOT requirements.   Snell is a non-profit and optional U.S. standard.  In any case, their standards are both higher than most DsOT.  MotoGP certifies ECE, and so does F1.  That doesn't mean a Snell helmet won't pass their standards, as both are primarily Euro racing leagues.  Every cert costs money. 

Either way..... buying a DOT-only helmet to protect your head, is questionable.  But then, if you've made that choice, what's inside the helmet might not be worth protecting....

I'm guessing Pete has had a few crashes where he bumped his head in a DOT-only helmet. 

 

AFAIK a big part of the Snell certification process involves the ability of the helmet to survive multiple hits in the same spot - something that basically never happens in a motorcycle crash. It is common in auto racing however since the driver is captive and surrounded by fixed hard points. 

There has even been testing which shows increased risk of a brain injury while wearing a Snell-rated lid because the greater rigidity required to meet the standard actually transfers more impact.

But I get it - you love Snell rated lids, and there is no arguing that they generally are much better than DOT only certified helmets. 

Edited by Pete Z

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I'm still on the CL10.  Lol.  Cheapest I've seen for CL17s is on Ebay.  Have seen them for around $140 with heated visors.  but sizing would certainly still be an issue, especially for an item you can't try on. 

 

8 hours ago, ZRSledhead said:

I currently own 3 HJC helmets, all of which are XL and fit me correctly, my snow version CL14 is getting long in the tooth, time to replace.   Strolled into  Royal Dist, while they don't carry  CL17 in the snow version (yes HJC makes it / no I didn't care it would cost me most to add elec shield) I walked over to the motorcycle section and pulled an XL off the shelf. Not a chance that was going over my melon, neither was a 2X, the 3X did but was brutally tight above my brow, this is what led me to try two more 3X of the exact same model. No two fit anywhere close to the other, none fit me correctly. While the salesperson agreed all three did look / fit differently on my head, she decided I must be wrong about my current HJC helmets all being XL's. If they made electric shields for a higher end helmet like a Shoe or similar, would not blink at the cost. No blank check / baller sledding budget here, just willing to spend what it takes to be safer.

If you've noticed, some helmets loose the Snell Rating in larger sizes, perhaps they are no longer making different shell sizes but are instead cutting down on the interior padding to fit larger heads.

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Looks like Pete finally Googled "Snell".  Lol 

No love for Snell particularly, but want a good quality helmet regardless.  A non profit organization that was created in the aftermath of a fatal injury, is easier to trust than most. 

 

5 hours ago, Pete Z said:

AFAIK a big part of the Snell certification process involves the ability of the helmet to survive multiple hits in the same spot - something that basically never happens in a motorcycle crash. It is common in auto racing however since the driver is captive and surrounded by fixed hard points. 

There has even been testing which shows increased risk of a brain injury while wearing a Snell-rated lid because the greater rigidity required to meet the standard actually transfers more impact.

But I get it - you love Snell rated lids, and there is no arguing that they generally are much better than DOT only certified helmets. 

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2 hours ago, Puzzleboy said:

Looks like Pete finally Googled "Snell".  Lol 

No love for Snell particularly, but want a good quality helmet regardless.  A non profit organization that was created in the aftermath of a fatal injury, is easier to trust than most. 

 

No Google required.  I sold helmets for years, so some of those salesmen's pitches had to stick eventually.  I talked about various helmets so often and for so long - the pros and cons and how to properly fit one - that I could care less if I had to discuss helmets ever again. 

Parting comment however is that personally I would choose an ECE helmet over Snell for motorcycle use.

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