So......

[Angry ginger]

30 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

And the middle class get a much more significant reduction than the upper class, thus it is a good tax plan.

It isn't trickle down BS.  That would be giving a break to the wealthy only, and that isn't the case at all.

Neal

 theres been no analysis that i have seen that shows that across any broad spectrum of the population

[NaturallyAspirated]

3 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

 

Poor @SSFB 

Neal

[Snoslinger]

4 minutes ago, racer254 said:

Why is this so hard for him to understand.  He should just go back into hiding.

ah, the best example of who I'm talking about. so dumb he actually showed up.  so racer....how about some links? do you want me to find some where you were complaining about the wealthy getting wealthier  during the Obama years?

 

[NaturallyAspirated]

Just now, Angry ginger said:

 theres been no analysis that i have seen that shows that across any broad spectrum of the population

https://github.com/open-source-economics/Tax-Calculator

Deployed on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/calculate-americans-taxes-senate-reform-bill/index.html

Neal

[NaturallyAspirated]

1 minute ago, Snoslinger said:

ah, the best example of who I'm talking about. so dumb he actually showed up.  so racer....how about some links? do you want me to find some where you were complaining about the wealthy getting wealthier  during the Obama years?

 

Obama is certainly a better option that Trump or Hillary.   

Neal

[racer254]

5 minutes ago, Snoslinger said:

ah, the best example of who I'm talking about. so dumb he actually showed up.  so racer....how about some links? do you want me to find some where you were complaining about the wealthy getting wealthier  during the Obama years?

 

Dude, your a flat out imbecile.  You rehash the same shit over and over and over.  Just go back to whichever site you visit and leave this one alone.

[Angry ginger]

so using your link

a person in the 50-75k tax bracket with 2 kids sees  after tax income increase by 4.9%

a person at 75-125 sees a 3.8% increase

at 250k in income who can certainly afford to pay more they get a 6.6% income increase

at 500k in income after tax income goes up by 3%. 

Last time I checked i'd rather have 3% of 500k than 3.8% of 125k or 4.9% of 75k but thats me.  And at what cost are we seeing these tax cuts,  theres no attempt at reducing spending, theres no attempt at paying off debt.   So the governments income is going to go down by hundreds of billions,  interest expenses will continue to rise as we have to borrow to cover the gaps none of which is a long term benefit for our children and future generations.  

 

[Snoslinger]

4 minutes ago, Angry ginger said:

so using your link

a person in the 50-75k tax bracket with 2 kids sees  after tax income increase by 4.9%

a person at 75-125 sees a 3.8% increase

at 250k in income who can certainly afford to pay more they get a 6.6% income increase

at 500k in income after tax income goes up by 3%. 

Last time I checked i'd rather have 3% of 500k than 3.8% of 125k or 4.9% of 75k but thats me.  And at what cost are we seeing these tax cuts,  theres no attempt at reducing spending, theres no attempt at paying off debt.   So the governments income is going to go down by hundreds of billions,  interest expenses will continue to rise as we have to borrow to cover the gaps none of which is a long term benefit for our children and future generations.  

 

like i said, i thought neal was a little smarter than this. hell even a lot of republicans hate this bill.

[Muskoka Rider]

1 hour ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

Indeed, although not Republican I am opposite Sanders on most tax policy.  I think the tax cut is a good thing.  I think there should be a spending cut to match to make it neutral out of the box.  

I am glad the current revision fixed the graduate school waiver as income issue.  That was a simple to fix hang up that most lefties were crying about, it shows conservatives also value education and are willing to compromise. 

Neal

How can you think a tax cut is good? It amazes me how you idiots all think that a government can go on endlessly leveraging future labour and production of the population, many not even born yet, without ever having the debt come due. I want I want is all you self serving dolts ever scream. Not one single American is up to the task of paying for the government services you demand. The budget should be such that this debt is eliminated altogether, and never should a deficit be allowed, ever. Pay for what you want from government, including your disgusting  military budget.

[NaturallyAspirated]

12 minutes ago, Angry ginger said:

so using your link

a person in the 50-75k tax bracket with 2 kids sees  after tax income increase by 4.9%

a person at 75-125 sees a 3.8% increase

at 250k in income who can certainly afford to pay more they get a 6.6% income increase

at 500k in income after tax income goes up by 3%. 

Last time I checked i'd rather have 3% of 500k than 3.8% of 125k or 4.9% of 75k but thats me.  And at what cost are we seeing these tax cuts,  theres no attempt at reducing spending, theres no attempt at paying off debt.   So the governments income is going to go down by hundreds of billions,  interest expenses will continue to rise as we have to borrow to cover the gaps none of which is a long term benefit for our children and future generations.  

 

We all would rather make 500k and get a smaller percentage of that,  but the middle class does in fact see a larger percentage of their income increase than the rich does..  I don't mind the rich getting a tax cut, as long as the middle class gets one, and one that is bigger.

And I already posted on the reduce spending aspect (as well as corporate rate).  There is no question the break should be offset by spending reduction.

Neal

[NaturallyAspirated]

2 minutes ago, Muskoka Rider said:

How can you think a tax cut is good? It amazes me how you idiots all think that a government can go on endlessly leveraging future labour and production of the population, many not even born yet, without ever having the debt come due. I want I want is all you self serving dolts ever scream. Not one single American is up to the task of paying for the government services you demand. The budget should be such that this debt is eliminated altogether, and never should a deficit be allowed, ever. Pay for what you want from government, including your disgusting  military budget.

It should be revenue neutral for sure, that is a failure by so called "conservatives".

Neal

[Muskoka Rider]

Just now, NaturallyAspirated said:

It should be revenue neutral for sure, that is a failure by so called "conservatives".

Neal

Revenue neutral never works out that way when governments tell it is going to. When you look at why we are in debt, and why we can never come out of it, the real reasons, not the bullshit the government's tell us, you realize we are being scammed by the banks. the entire monetary system is now set up to be run on debt, the Federal Reserve is a privately held corp. set up to funnel taxpayer money to a few families. have you ever wondered why we need inflation and we need to the economy and population to grow or we all suffer? It is because the economy is a pyramid scheme. Without more people entering the scheme it will collapse. eventually it will collapse no matter what they do, it will run its course, and hyper inflation will take hold the world over and there will be no recovery. it is our destiny and governments know it. This is why they borrow so much, there is no intent nor any plan to pay it back, simply service the loans as long as they can. we are all fucked, but it may last another 50 years if we are lucky.

[ArcticCrusher]

4 minutes ago, Muskoka Rider said:

Revenue neutral never works out that way when governments tell it is going to. When you look at why we are in debt, and why we can never come out of it, the real reasons, not the bullshit the government's tell us, you realize we are being scammed by the banks. the entire monetary system is now set up to be run on debt, the Federal Reserve is a privately held corp. set up to funnel taxpayer money to a few families. have you ever wondered why we need inflation and we need to the economy and population to grow or we all suffer? It is because the economy is a pyramid scheme. Without more people entering the scheme it will collapse. eventually it will collapse no matter what they do, it will run its course, and hyper inflation will take hold the world over and there will be no recovery. it is our destiny and governments know it. This is why they borrow so much, there is no intent nor any plan to pay it back, simply service the loans as long as they can. we are all fucked, but it may last another 50 years if we are lucky.

[SSFB]

On 12/14/2017 at 8:12 AM, Snoslinger said:

well off the top of my head - racer, SSFB, smails, bussman...maybe the links exist, I'd just like to see them. my argument all along is that most of these supposed Bernie voters would still have voted trump at the end of the day. they're just using Hillary as an excuse for trump

 

 

I've never been a complainer about "money staying at the top" , quit lying. Once I found out more about Bernie(probably like late 2015) I decided I couldn't support him and I stated as much more than once. I would likely not support him in any future election. 

And I didn't vote for Trump either. 

On 12/14/2017 at 8:21 AM, Snoslinger said:

why in the hell do you think this tax plan is a good thing?

joel is a damn coward, end of story. if Hillary were in office now, pulling all this crap, he'd be over in the rww cheering section yelling his head off. is he now? I highly doubt it.

Bullshit. No different than during the Obama years, I don't go around whining about the President. 

 I'll discuss any topic anytime. Nothing is sacred with me so spare me your coward comments. You've gone full derp and jumped on SnowRider's gotcha bandwagon. All of the times you've been beaten to a pulp with your pathetic detective attempts yet here you are again. You're one of the most dishonest debaters here. You habitually misrepresent peoples views. 

[Kivalo]

1 hour ago, Snoslinger said:

well a supposed Bernie supporter should have all kinds of complaints about trump to link up, especially regarding this tax bill

 

How are you not grasping that both Trump and Sanders were viewed as NOT owned by big money and not typical DC politicians, thats why people supported them. Not because of any specific stance.

[SSFB]

7 minutes ago, Kivalo said:

How are you not grasping that both Trump and Sanders were viewed as NOT owned by big money and not typical DC politicians, thats why people supported them. Not because of any specific stance.

Its been explained to him a thousand times but he still ignores it. 

Which is what makes him dishonest. 

[Kivalo]

1 minute ago, SSFB said:

Its been explained to him a thousand times but he still ignores it. 

Which is what makes him dishonest. 

Yep. It doesn't fit his narrative.

[racer254]

1 hour ago, Muskoka Rider said:

Revenue neutral never works out that way when governments tell it is going to. When you look at why we are in debt, and why we can never come out of it, the real reasons, not the bullshit the government's tell us, you realize we are being scammed by the banks. the entire monetary system is now set up to be run on debt, the Federal Reserve is a privately held corp. set up to funnel taxpayer money to a few families. have you ever wondered why we need inflation and we need to the economy and population to grow or we all suffer? It is because the economy is a pyramid scheme. Without more people entering the scheme it will collapse. eventually it will collapse no matter what they do, it will run its course, and hyper inflation will take hold the world over and there will be no recovery. it is our destiny and governments know it. This is why they borrow so much, there is no intent nor any plan to pay it back, simply service the loans as long as they can. we are all fucked, but it may last another 50 years if we are lucky.

You bring up a good point, so what's your suggestion to fix this, that people on this site have control over?   Every conservative on this site wants spending cuts and believes our government has a spending problem.  Most believe government should be run like a business.  Is that the solution?

[Muskoka Rider]

2 minutes ago, racer254 said:

You bring up a good point, so what's your suggestion to fix this, that people on this site have control over?   Every conservative on this site wants spending cuts and believes our government has a spending problem.  Most believe government should be run like a business.  Is that the solution?

There is no fixing it. It will run its course, millions will suffer when it crashes and then the wealthy elite will start again with a new and improved way to scam those that actually do the work. All you can do is work within the corrupt system to the best of your ability. For many it works just fine, for now, but it will all come to an end. It has to, you simply cannot continue to grow debt at the levels we see. I find it funny that we now compare debt to a percentage of GDP, you do realize that GDP also includes government spending. Governments can spend more, then borrow more and never change the percentage of spending to GDP, yet here we are using that for a new benchmark on our borrowing limits. Insanity, but it is all we have, and it is now so entrenched there is simply no way to alter it, it has to fail for a change to take place.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Muskoka Rider
.

[oleroule]

2 hours ago, Snoslinger said:

#1) corporations are already swimming in cash and if they wanted to hire more people, they'd do it. now even more money is going to make them hire extra people, when thet don't need the extra people?

#2) the middle class isn't getting jack shit, especially later.

#3) offshoring corporations are still going to offshore

#4) the economy is rolling along, this tax break isn't going to do shit. it will continue to roll along and I guarantee trump will credit the tax plan for it, and most trumpsters will fall for it.

#1 who are you to decide how much money a company can have? also, the tax cuts are to induce reinvestment.

#2 all taxpayers will get a decrease in tax liability thru an increase in the personal exemption.

#3 can't stop that.

#4 cool, let's keep it going.

[racer254]

10 minutes ago, Muskoka Rider said:

There is no fixing it. It will run its course, millions will suffer when it crashes and then the wealthy elite will start again with a new and improved way to scam those that actually do the work. All you can do is work within the corrupt system to the best of your ability. For many it works just fine, for now, but it will all come to an end. It has to, you simply cannot continue to grow debt at the levels we see. I find it funny that we now compare debt to a percentage of GDP, you do realize that GDP also includes government spending. Governments can spend more, then borrow more and never change the percentage of spending to GDP, yet here we are using that for a new benchmark on our borrowing limits. Insanity, but it is all we have, and it is now so entrenched there is simply no way to alter it, it has to fail for a change to take place.

So, then I guess all we have is Tax Cuts for each of us?  And make them as big as possible?

[Muskoka Rider]

Just now, racer254 said:

So, then I guess all we have is Tax Cuts for each of us?  And make them as big as possible?

Take what you can get now, giving the government more of your money solves nothing. The government refuses to budget properly, it comes down to who gets to keep what, and who gets the money they take. no government is ever going to pay back the debt, or make it better, but one will fuck you while helping another and vice a versa, so vote for personal benefit, and fuck the moral high ground, because when it comes to governments, there is no morality, and certainly no high ground. The best we can do is try to hold them to account when they get pinched for personal fraud. the entire government is one big fraud, but we have no recourse there, it has grown into an indestructible monster.

[$poorsledder$]

Mortgage interest rate deduction goes from homes valued at 1,000,000 to 500,000.  State and local property tax capped at 10K for deductions.  I would think this is above middle class.    

 

 

 

[racer254]

12 minutes ago, $poorsledder$ said:

Mortgage interest rate deduction goes from homes valued at 1,000,000 to 500,000.  State and local property tax capped at 10K for deductions.  I would think this is above middle class.    

 

 

 

It surely is, but that's doesn't fit the narrative.

[$poorsledder$]

13 minutes ago, racer254 said:

It surely is, but that's doesn't fit the narrative.

Standard deduction for single goes from $6,500 to $12,000.  Married goes from $13,000 to $24,000.  Personal exemptions going away but if you have a lot of kids and you cant afford them then what were you thinking?  Sorry.... doesn't fit the narrative.......